1. Joined
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    06 Oct '09 13:34
    Originally posted by Agerg
    What a grim prospect!...to exist for an infinite period of time, where, for all times spent in that place you allegedy live out the rest of eternity, you have experienced not even the smallest conceivable fraction of the time left to endure.

    The point when the only things new which remain to be done shall be comprised of mostly the incrementing of the coun ...[text shortened]... point that you're bored!!!

    I'll take eternal [b]non-
    existence thankyou very much 😉[/b]
    Perhaps you are comparing the boredom of your life at present and projecting that out in an assumption that this is what any "eternal life" could be.

    For me I came to Christ with not much thought as to eternity. Rather to remedy my present sense of emptiness and hollowness of life.

    This does not mean that I did not have a lot of enjoyment. I did and do. It means that the enjoyment left something deeper in me still hungry. The enjoyment did not touch the deepest part of my being.

    I think this is the point of Jesus standing up on the last day of a big enjoyable feast and insinuating the the crowd may still contain people who were thirsty. He did this on the conclusion of the party when everyone was to be feeling their best. Yet He knew that for some the deepest hunger was still not met because they did not have the Spirit of God within.

    "Now on the LAST DAY, THE GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink.

    He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

    But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)


    Perhaps, in your "feast" your innermost being is still bored, thristly, unsatisfied. You imagine that any eternal existence would be more of the same boredom.

    I recommend that your present day thirst would be quenched by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ flowing out of your innermost being if you would come to Him.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Oct '09 14:16
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I assume you refer here to my assertion that eternal life would be torture.

    A basis for this view can be seen by re-reading my OP.(note: I didn't say "physical torture" )
    If your physical form was the same you almost may have a point,
    but since you neither know what form you'd have or what is in store
    for you if you make to either place I'd say you have a basic lack of
    understanding and do not have enough info to say one thing or
    another about. The only thing you do know and it is basic and you
    can only guess as to what it is going to be like is one is to be avoided
    the other not so much.
    Kelly
  3. Milton Keynes, UK
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    06 Oct '09 15:06
    Originally posted by daniel58
    Well even if there was only 1% of 1% of a chance of hell's existence then I would still act as if there was 100% chance of it existing because it's not worth it to be wrong!
    Pascal's Wager alert!
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    06 Oct '09 15:182 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Perhaps you are comparing the boredom of your life at present and projecting that out in an assumption that this is what any "[b]eternal life" could be.

    For me I came to Christ with not much thought as to eternity. Rather to remedy my present sense of emptiness and hollowness of life.

    This does not mean that I did not have a lot of enjoyment. Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ flowing out of your innermost being if you would come to Him.[/b]
    I'm somewhat immune to scriptural arguments but thanks all the same.

    My life isn't actually boring! infact I enjoy existing so much that right now, I don't want to stop existing (ie: I am averse to losing my life)
    But I can say this because I know that the duration of my life is certainly finite.

    To put this in different terms, imagine eating your favourite food...as you take your first bite you probably don't want to stop eating it...now imagine that by some hypothetical system of maintaining at least a small degree of hunger, you are forced to perform the action of eating this food for every moment you are awake until you're dead.
    I am sure that under such conditions your attitude towards this favourite food would change.

    Now imagine that you will always be eating it...eternally!
  5. Joined
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    06 Oct '09 18:57
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm somewhat immune to scriptural arguments but thanks all the same.

    My life isn't actually boring! infact I enjoy existing so much that right now, I don't want to stop existing (ie: I am averse to losing my life)
    But I can say this because I know that the duration of my life is certainly finite.

    To put this in different terms, imagine eating your favou ...[text shortened]... ourite food
    would change.

    Now imagine that you will always be eating it...eternally![/b]
    I don't imagine any of these dismal things that you imagine. Rather I expect that eternal life certainly implies endless possibilites.

    And I am kind of immune to human reasonings which disregard the word of God.
  6. Joined
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    06 Oct '09 20:11
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm somewhat immune to scriptural arguments but thanks all the same.

    isn't actually boring! infact I enMy life joy existing so much that right now, I don't want to stop existing (ie: I am averse to losing my life)
    But I can say this because I know that the duration of my life is certainly finite.

    To put this in different terms, imagine eating your favou ...[text shortened]... ourite food
    would change.

    Now imagine that you will always be eating it...eternally![/b]
    Immune? There's no immune it's The Truth, that's like saying a train hits you yet you're immune to it.

    He that shall keep his life shall lose it, but he that shall lose his life for My sake shall find it".

    But it's not like that imagine that you are enjoying the happiest moment of your life right now, now imagine that I say that you shall die of someone beating you to death in one minute, now imagine that I give you the choice of either you continuing to enjoy your happy moment or you can be beaten to death which one would you choose, it's a no-brainer, yet you will be way happy than the happiest moment of your life in Heaven.
  7. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Oct '09 10:17
    Originally posted by daniel58
    Immune? There's no immune it's The Truth, that's like saying a train hits you yet you're immune to it.

    He that shall keep his life shall lose it, but he that shall lose his life for My sake shall find it".

    But it's not like that imagine that you are enjoying the happiest moment of your life right now, now imagine that I say that you shall die of some ...[text shortened]... a no-brainer, yet you will be way happy than the happiest moment of your life in Heaven.
    "Immune? There's no immune it's The Truth, that's like saying a train hits you yet you're immune to it."
    No it isn't!!! I'll agree that I'm not immune to hearing someone throw their favourite verses at me in just the same way that I'm not immune to being hit by a train. I am however unable to be swayed by any arguments from a book that can be justified neither philosophically nor empirically.
    I say your "Truth" as you put it is nothing of the sort.

    But it's not like that imagine that you are enjoying the happiest moment of your life right now, now imagine that I say that you shall die of someone beating you to death in one minute, now imagine that I give you the choice of either you continuing to enjoy your happy moment or you can be beaten to death which one would you choose, it's a no-brainer, yet you will be way happy than the happiest moment of your life in Heaven.
    For this analogy to have any meaning I'd have to assume that regardless of any other variables; happiness is something which remains constant or monotonically increases.
    Why should I accept this just because you or someone/thing else merely says so???
  8. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Oct '09 10:271 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I don't imagine any of these dismal things that you imagine. Rather I expect that [b]eternal life certainly implies endless possibilites.

    And I am kind of immune to human reasonings which disregard the word of God.[/b]
    Well counting up to infinity would indeed entail limitless different experiences (since expressing the number n+1 is a different exhiliarating sensation than expressing the number n) but it remains to be demonstrated that there are infinitely many sets of things to do (I'd like their differences to be significant since 101 things to do with a red umbrella is quite bloody similar to 101 things you can do with a blue umbrella) so that my interest could be maintained for all eternity.

    And I am kind of immune to human reasonings which disregard the word of God Only when such reasonings refer specifically to this type of topic (religious ones) I wager...the same styles of logical reasoning are surely used by yourself in other (non-religious) discussions!
  9. Cape Town
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    07 Oct '09 12:40
    Originally posted by Agerg
    What a grim prospect!...to exist for an infinite period of time, where, for all times spent in that place you allegedy live out the rest of eternity, you have experienced not even the smallest conceivable fraction of the time left to endure.

    The point when the only things new which remain to be done shall be comprised of mostly the incrementing of the coun ...[text shortened]... point that you're bored!!!

    I'll take eternal [b]non-
    existence thankyou very much 😉[/b]
    You are assuming that you have a perfect memory which currently is obviously false. Why do you assume that that will necessarily be the case if you were immortal?
    I for one often find that activities I got bored of years ago are fun again if not played for a while. This is partly due to my imperfect memory and partly simply because some activities are fun and only get boring if they are carried out too often. Variety is the spice of life, but infinite variety is not required.
    I for one would probably chose immortality if it was available, though obviously it would be nice to know what the quality of life on offer would be before making the decision.
  10. Joined
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    07 Oct '09 13:534 edits
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Well counting up to infinity would indeed entail limitless different experiences (since expressing the number n+1 is a different exhiliarating sensation than expressing the number n) but it remains to be demonstrated that there are infinitely many sets of things to do (I'd like their differences to be significant since 101 things to do with a red umbrella is q ...[text shortened]... e styles of logical reasoning are surely used by yourself in other (non-religious) discussions!
    =====================================
    Well counting up to infinity would indeed entail limitless different experiences (since expressing the number n+1 is a different exhiliarating sensation than expressing the number n) but it remains to be demonstrated that there are infinitely many sets of things to do
    ==========================================


    In one form or another all the negative experiences of human life are roled up in the matter of death. The one demonstration which convinces us that Christ overcomes all forms of human negativity is His resurrection from the dead.

    The point being that if Christ conquers death He can conquer anything. I don't primarily think of "things to do" in eternity as much as a "Person to be enjoyed".

    This is not to imply that there are no "things to do". It means that undergirding all activity is the deep enjoyment of Christ Himself in ourselves and in one another.

    I am positive that it will beat weeping and gnashing of teeth of the lost. These two activities seem to indicate to me endless sorrow or regret - weeping, and self blame "gnashing of teeth".

    Like wanting to kick yourself for being so foolish to turn down a wonderful opportunity, the gnashing of teeth may be the reaction of having spurned the love of God to remove the stain of one's sins in Jesus.

    =================================
    (I'd like their differences to be significant since 101 things to do with a red umbrella is quite bloody similar to 101 things you can do with a blue umbrella) so that my interest could be maintained for all eternity.
    ===================================


    Because I recognize that I am created by God, I trust that God knows best how to maintain my joy. I am His design. It is unrealistic for me to be concerned that the Creator of human life would not know how to care for it in every detail in His eternal kingdom.

    I am sorry Agerg. But these reasons of yours just don't make that much sense to me. But then again, I have to count my believing the Gospel as the result of God's mercy upon me.

    Now I know you say that you don't care what the Bible says. But I take into consideration that what God has prepared them that love Him has not even entered into their heart. So I am not concerned.

    You can just stop reading at this point if you prefer. But for the sake of others:

    "But as it is written, things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man's heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9)

    God has prepared enjoyment which hitherto has not even come up in man's imagination, let alone witnessed or heard.

    And again: "But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us, To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen." (Ehp. 3:20,21)

    God dispensing His Spirit into man operates in man to do far above what man can ask or think. The indwelling Christ here seems limitless and subjective. And we enjoying a foretaste now of what we shall enjoy in a fuller measure "unto all the generations forever and ever".

    I don't want to be weeping and gnashing my teeth at having succumbed to some kind of pride which rejected the redeeming and life transforming love of Christ.
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Oct '09 14:357 edits
    I see your point Twitehead but then given we are talking about infinity here, doesn't this need to be backed up with some demonstration that there won't be decay for the length of time activity X will be enjoyable (proportional to how long ago you last did it) as the number of times you do X increases? (This assumes not perfect memory, but some memory)
    Since if there is indeed such a decay (and it could be microscopically small) then for some time t (which you will certainly reach) either the gap between doing X at two different points must be large enough such that you have to worry about the potential tedium of activity Y say) or the enjoyment from doing X will be transient.

    Because as you will be aware; eternity really is a long time

    I suppose there is the God will give you amnesia argument but this seems, like with many theistic solutions, particularly contrived.

    Eternal non-existence seems grim at first because it is an alien concept; but as has been said countless times before by others...I managed it perfectly well before I was born and I'm sure I'll cope once I'm dead. (Though I'd rather prolong that for as long as I can given that I know I will die relatively shortly)
  12. Joined
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    07 Oct '09 19:56
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I see your point Twitehead but then given we are talking about infinity here, doesn't this need to be backed up with some demonstration that there won't be decay for the length of time activity X will be enjoyable (proportional to how long ago you last did it) as the number of times you do X increases? (This assumes not perfect memory, but [b]some memory) ...[text shortened]... rather prolong that for as long as I can given that I know I will die relatively shortly)[/b]
    Surely you are also making the tacit assumption that the environs of eternity will preclude the possibility of an infinite number of things to do that you will find interesting or enjoyable? Another assumption is that all things that one finds enjoyable inevitably pall with repetition, but is that true? Does enjoyment of sex diminish over time? Only with the onset of pathology maybe.

    As I've said, my slogan is: 'Eternal bliss now!'

    I regard a failure to sign up as a failure of imagination of a kind which is exemplified by your opening post.
  13. Joined
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    07 Oct '09 20:23
    Originally posted by jaywill
    ...

    And I am kind of immune to human reasonings which disregard the word of God.
    What you mean is that you're immune to human reasonings which disregard what you interpret as the Word of God.
  14. Joined
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    07 Oct '09 21:22
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]"Immune? There's no immune it's The Truth, that's like saying a train hits you yet you're immune to it."
    No it isn't!!! I'll agree that I'm not immune to hearing someone throw their favourite verses at me in just the same way that I'm not immune to being hit by a train. I am however unable to be swayed by any arguments from a book that can be ...[text shortened]... ld I accept this just because you or someone/thing else merely says so???[/b]
    So why should we accpet anything? We can't we all just believe in nothing, that nothing exists ever has or ever will, that's it's all just an illusion? That's what some people say or believe in but my suggestion for you is read "The case for Christ".
  15. Joined
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    07 Oct '09 22:292 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    What you mean is that you're immune to human reasonings which disregard what you interpret as the Word of God.
    ============================
    What you mean is that you're immune to human reasonings which disregard what you interpret as the Word of God.
    ==================================


    It may be annoying that some people are sure of what they believe.
    You may find it surprising that there are some matters for which a person has been convinced. There are other Bible statements where one recognizes other interpretations are possible.

    I was not as closed minded as Agerg. Agerg said s/he was immune to the Bible period. I was not as emphatic. I said I was "kind of immune" to human reasonings that disregard the word of God.

    You see I realize that I could still be deceived in some areas. Otherwise I think my daily life would be quite radically different. So I realize some amount of vain human reasoning has its effect on me.

    But the obstinancy shown by Agerg I am not open minded to.

    For the record, there are biblical interpretations of which I am undecided and recognize that there is more than one opinion on the way to interpret them.
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