Eternal Existence

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Surely you are also making the tacit assumption that the environs of eternity will preclude the possibility of an infinite number of things to do that you will find interesting or enjoyable? Another assumption is that all things that one finds enjoyable inevitably pall with repetition, but is that true? Does enjoyment of sex diminish over time? Only with e to sign up as a failure of imagination of a kind which is exemplified by your opening post.

It remains to be demonstrated that there really is an infinite number of things to do that will be enjoyable...that is more an assumption that such exists on your part! There are certainly an infinite number of things to do; but that isn't important...what is important is that they be enjoyable. As I suggested earlier 101 things to do with a blue umbrella is similar to 101 things to do with a red umbrella

Also your sex analogy has a subtle flaw in that (and I'm not trained in biology so I'll avoid discussions about the mechanics which induces such enjoyment (moot point without a physical body)) you failed to mention sex with [insert person]. The prospect of having sex with the same person, I'm sure can be demonstrated, does vanish over time!


Regarding your last point I ask do you really have such an imagination yourself or do you have a fuzzy notion that everything's gonna be ace, God will see to it!???

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]============================
What you mean is that you're immune to human reasonings which disregard what you interpret as the Word of God.
==================================

It may be annoying that some people are sure of what they believe.
You may find it surprising that there are some matters for which a person has been convinced. T ...[text shortened]... am undecided and recognize that there is more than one opinion on the way to interpret them.[/b]

I didn't say I was Immune to the Bible; I said I'm somewhat immune to scriptoral arguments. (a much stronger statement which implies if someone threw verses at me from the Koran I'd be just as dismissive of them)
This means I need more than just someone or something's say so...I need to see how & why such and such a proposition must be true, or how it can be true whilst another conflicting proposition cannot be true.

Your Bible offers me nothing. I cannot test for God objectively, there are many competing religions with the same claims to validity, the tales of talking serpents & such are childish or should be taken via unspecified reader discretion allegorically. There is no real tangible evidence that any of the extraordinary events told of within your Bible ever took place at all...


I'm a he btw 😉

Originally posted by Agerg
I see your point Twitehead but then given we are talking about infinity here, doesn't this need to be backed up with some demonstration that there won't be decay for the length of time activity X will be enjoyable (proportional to how long ago you last did it) as the number of times you do X increases? (This assumes not perfect memory, but [b]some memory)[/b]

No, I don't think I am required to back it up at all. It remains a possibility until you disprove it and thus for you to declare eternal life boring some assumptions must be made.
I have no idea what sort of eternal life we are talking about, but if human beings could find a way to regenerate their brains over time (say with stem cells) and thus become essentially immortal, I would expect that some memory loss would occur and that there would always be interesting things to do. One would have to have near infinite memory if one is to be bored of a near infinite number of activities.

Under your scenario (ie remembering all past activities) I would be most concerned about insanity or other effects due to the dramatically increased memory capacity. I would certainly be a very different person after I have experienced all the earth has to offer, I shudder to think what the universe has to offer.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Surely you are also making the tacit assumption that the environs of eternity will preclude the possibility of an infinite number of things to do that you will find interesting or enjoyable? Another assumption is that all things that one finds enjoyable inevitably pall with repetition, but is that true? Does enjoyment of sex diminish over time? Only with ...[text shortened]... e to sign up as a failure of imagination of a kind which is exemplified by your opening post.

Sure thing; however I would say: "Eternal bliss herenow"
😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, I don't think I am required to back it up at all. It remains a possibility until you disprove it and thus for you to declare eternal life boring some assumptions must be made.
I have no idea what sort of eternal life we are talking about, but if human beings could find a way to regenerate their brains over time (say with stem cells) and thus become e ...[text shortened]... have experienced all the earth has to offer, I shudder to think what the universe has to offer.

No, I don't think I am required to back it up at all. It remains a possibility until you disprove it and thus for you to declare eternal life boring some assumptions must be made. We both know that is improvable so I'll let you make the assumption that there will be sufficient things to do of interest for any time t whilst I'll assume that without further (perhaps radical) info, and going off my own experience, there won't

One would have to have near infinite memory if one is to be bored of a near infinite number of activities. I'm not so sure I agree with this for if there are K different activities (K < infinity) then there surely exists some time t (perhaps very large but still insignificant with respect to infinity) for which at this time these activities have been recalled and performed often enough that they can be considered in some way boring...now just let time run onwards and onwards.

Originally posted by Agerg
What a grim prospect!...to exist for an infinite period of time, where, for all times spent in that place you allegedy live out the rest of eternity, you have experienced not even the smallest conceivable fraction of the time left to endure.

The point when the only things new which remain to be done shall be comprised of mostly the incrementing of the coun ...[text shortened]... point that you're bored!!!

I'll take eternal [b]non-existence thankyou very much 😉[/b]

You misunderstand the Christian understanding of eternity. Heaven is not a destination it's just the beginning. Think about how you have grown over your life and how your love for those you hold dear has deepened. Now , imagine the love in you growing and growing to an almost unbearable joy.

Then imagine that process continuing forever , with each new level of joy and love feeling as fresh and as new as the first day you fell in love or smelt the head of your new born baby. And even then you would feel the beginnings of excitement as you realise there is yet another depth of God's love to discover and that you have only just begun to explore the glory of eternity.

Agree with or disagree with it - this is the Christian vision of heaven not your static eternity. Somewhere so beautiful and fresh that even the most amazing peak experiences on earth are just a shadow.

Your vision of eternity is just your own sad projection.

Originally posted by Agerg
We both know that is improvable so I'll let you make the assumption that there will be sufficient things to do of interest for any time t whilst I'll assume that without further (perhaps radical) info, and going off my own experience, there won't

I make no such assumptions, I merely point out that it is possible. If offered the chance at eternal life, I don't think the fear of boredom would be my main concern. I would be more concerned about whether I would be given a reasonably enjoyable environment or placed in eternal torture. If I was offered 88 virgins in paradise, I would be less concerned about whether I would get bored of sex and far more concerned about whether I could get away from all their bickering when I chose to.

I'm not so sure I agree with this for if there are K different activities (K < infinity) then there surely exists some time t (perhaps very large but still insignificant with respect to infinity) for which at this time these activities have been recalled and performed often enough that they can be considered in some way boring...now just let time run onwards and onwards.
My main point is that there are more than enough activities on earth that the human brain is incapable of remembering them all sufficiently enough to induce boredom. So we must necessarily be talking about something other than the human brain - which already raises the question as to whether this unknown entity is even capable or prone to boredom.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Agree with or disagree with it - this is the Christian vision of heaven not your static eternity. .

I always find it interesting how you take your own rather specific beliefs and proclaim them 'the Christian .....'. it is the first time I have heard eternity or heaven described that way as a Christian, yet you talk about it as if almost all Christians believe as you do.
It also sounds like you made it up to suit your own desires.

Originally posted by twhitehead

My main point is that there are more than enough activities on earth that the human brain is incapable of remembering them all sufficiently enough to induce boredom. So we must necessarily be talking about something other than the human brain - which already raises the question as to whether this unknown entity is even capable or prone to boredom.

Yes, why should an eternal existence be conscious of time passing.

It's not even certain whether there is a limit to the possibilities of human activity, since to date the series of activities generated by every individual human existence has run up against a limiting number ...

You know the old 'Dad has many rooms in his mansion' shtick? Imagine the rooms just keep multiplying. You'd spend eternity just trying to get out.

Even with a sense of passing time, I'd probably be all right if Eternity had a decent media centre. Just watching the aboriginal tapes would take as much time as there has been until the point at which watching commenced.

Originally posted by Agerg
It remains to be demonstrated that there really is an infinite number of things to do that will be enjoyable...that is more an assumption that such exists on your part!
I have made no such assumption, rather, I have pointed out that your OP entails that such an assumption is false. But this is not reasonable, since clearly these things lie outside our possible knowledge.

There are certainly an infinite number of things to do; but that isn't important...what is important is that they be enjoyable.
I think I find a subset of things I can do interesting. If eternity allows the universal set to be infinite, then why should my subset not be? You have provided no principled reason that it could not be.

The prospect of having sex with the same person, I'm sure can be demonstrated, does vanish over time!
Speak for yourself!

In any case, I don't see how this is a flaw in the analogy since people who find the above to be true don't give up sex, they just find somebody else.

Regarding your last point I ask do you really have such an imagination yourself or do you have a fuzzy notion that everything's gonna be ace, God will see to it!???
I think you have misunderstood the nature of the leap of imagination required there. It isn't that I can imagine in detail the nature of eternal existence, even if it were specified by some particular religious tradition, since it lies beyond my possible knowledge. What is required is enough imagination to realise that if you hold the premises that there will be a kind of personal eternal afterlife and that it will be good, then necessarily it will be enough unlike our lives such that we won't get bored.

I mean, I can sketch on the back of an envelope how it might work with the limited imagination I have, suppose it is like an eternal moment of bliss? No things to 'do', no body, no consciousness of the passing of time but a blissful eternal now.

Now you might reply that this doesn't work for various reasons like, without consciousness of time passing there can be no experience, and since 'bliss' is a form of conscious experience, there is a contradiction. I could reply that perception of time passing is not the same as experiencing 'now' but forever. And so on...

All this aside, my only real objection to your stated position is that it talks of eternal life. As soon as you do that there is a sense in which all bets are off. To speculate about its attributes is a bit like saying 'This is formally beyond the bounds of possible human knowledge, now I'm going to tell you stuff I reckon about it.'

Originally posted by twhitehead
I always find it interesting how you take your own rather specific beliefs and proclaim them 'the Christian .....'. it is the first time I have heard eternity or heaven described that way as a Christian, yet you talk about it as if almost all Christians believe as you do.
It also sounds like you made it up to suit your own desires.

Many Christians do not share this vision or maybve have never thought about it that deeply. Persoanlly I don't see how heaven could really be a static place as agerg describes , God would just not be God. I fail to see how heaven could boring , it would have to be glorious , stimulating , joyous and fresh. Anything else doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Agerg
Whether the body is material, ethereal, or whatever, I can't see how this has any significant effect on my actual problem (as outlined in the OP) with existing forever

Existing forever while weighed down by these material constraints seems hellish. Existing forever in a non material body sounds...I dunno .. inviting in a way...
I suppose step 1 is to get your mind around what 'existing forever' may entail.
My point is ,(that to me), existing forever within a material body seems alsmost disgusting in a way. With all that old flesh hanging around you.While living forever without a material body seems....errr...I was going to say 'better' , but I'm sure it has its own problems.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Many Christians do not share this vision or maybve have never thought about it that deeply. Persoanlly I don't see how heaven could really be a static place as agerg describes , God would just not be God. I fail to see how heaven could boring , it would have to be glorious , stimulating , joyous and fresh. Anything else doesn't make sense.

When scripture suggest no has even imagined what God has for us
why debate what it is or not?

1 Corinthians 2

6Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9but just as it is written,
"THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

Originally posted by Agerg
What a grim prospect!...to exist for an infinite period of time, where, for all times spent in that place you allegedy live out the rest of eternity, you have experienced not even the smallest conceivable fraction of the time left to endure.

The point when the only things new which remain to be done shall be comprised of mostly the incrementing of the coun ...[text shortened]... point that you're bored!!!

I'll take eternal [b]non-existence thankyou very much 😉[/b]

It's too bad that by your mischaracterization of eternity you draw such a dire conclusion.

Of course, "tormented day and night forever" doesn't sound like much fun.

To me, the idea that all the horrifying things done to people, by people, should go unpunished, is untenable.

Maybe the guy who bashed the head of a baby against the wall in front of his mother should be rewarded!

Originally posted by josephw
To me, the idea that all the horrifying things done to people, by people, should go unpunished, is untenable.
Isn't that dangerously close to committing the fallacy of argument from adverse consequences?