Originally posted by @fmfYou’re confusing belief with something they saw. Two very different things. Early Christians weren’t willing to die for something they could have honestly been mistaken about. They willingly endured persecution, torture and death for refusing to deny what they claim to have seen with their own eyes. If they didn’t see Jesus Christ post-crucifixion, why endure all that when they knew they were lying?
I have not claimed that it was "something they knew was a lie". You have introduced this notion, not me. dj2becker used exactly this gimmick on me about 6 months ago.
Why do people die for their religious beliefs? Religious fervour; strong conviction and faith; hysteria maybe; delusion; stories about them recanting but being executed anyway may have been ai ...[text shortened]... s do not establish any "truth" regarding the things they believe in, or maybe you think they do.
Originally posted by @romans1009This is not an answer to the exact question I asked, which was: "Do you see Hebrews 11:6 as being "evidence" that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given?"
Yes, that verse (and many others) speak of the importance that God places on faith.
Originally posted by @fmfI don’t know why you keep referencing this Becker guy. I’m not him. And I suppose I could have copy-and-pasted from the site or paraphrased what it said, but I figured you were interested in an answer to your question and didn’t care what format it was in.
dj2becker posted this link a few months ago. In fact, he may have posted 50+ links from https://www.gotquestions.org, including when he was using a different screen name, Fetchmyjunk. I am not interested in your internet links, and in a gesture of reciprocity, I will not be posting any links for you either.
Originally posted by @fmfSure, I see it as that. If God wanted to prove He existed, I suppose He could, though for some people - those with hardened hearts and scales on their eyes - no amount of evidence would amount to proof. Look at the Pharisees: They didn’t believe Jesus Christ was God even after all of the miracles He performed, which included numerous healings and raising at least three people from the dead.
This is not an answer to the exact question I asked, which was: "Do you see Hebrews 11:6 as being "evidence" that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given?"
Originally posted by @romans1009From what I have read, the Gospels were written decades after the death of Jesus by members of groups who had stories passed down to them. I find Christian claims that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to be very unconvincing.
You’re confusing belief with something they saw. Two very different things. Early Christians weren’t willing to die for something they could have honestly been mistaken about. They willingly endured persecution, torture and death for refusing to deny what they claim to have seen with their own eyes. If they didn’t see Jesus Christ post-crucifixion, why endure all that when they knew they were lying?
I think this gimmick you're pushing about "why endure all that when they knew they were lying" is a red herring. But if you believe the Gospels for the reasons you say you do, that's fine by me. If your faith helps you to come to terms with the inevitability of death and gives your mental life form and structure and purpose, I am OK with that.
The "evidence" you cite is particularly strong in the minds of those who already believe it, who were brought up with it, as well as those who simply want to believe it. That's human nature..
FMF Do you see Hebrews 11:6 as being "evidence" that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given?If you are therefore convinced that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given, one wonders why you are so concerned with establishing evidence and proof that your god figure exists.
Originally posted by @romans1009
Sure, I see it as that.
Originally posted by @romans1009I have been referencing Fetchmyjunk as well. Same guy.
I don’t know why you keep referencing this Becker guy.
<From what I have read, the Gospels were written decades after the death of Jesus>
The primary focus and mission of Jesus Christ’s disciples after His crucifixion and Resurrection was in surviving and spreading Christ’s message - not writing down everything that happened during His ministry.
<by members of groups who had stories passed down to them. I find Christian claims that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to be very unconvincing.>
What is your evidence for this?
Originally posted by @romans1009If you see Hebrews 11:6 as being "evidence" that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given [by your god figure] what are these "15 Logical Reasons to Believe" something about or in aid of? Do you believe that your god figure deliberately provided we humans with the Shroud of Turin despite Hebrews 11:6?
Google “15 Logical Reasons to Believe the Resurrection.”
<one wonders why you are so concerned with establishing evidence and proof>
Not interested in establishing proof - as I already said, proof is not possible on this subject. As far as evidence, I’m simply responding to a thread asking for evidence. One could just as easily ask why this thread was started.
Originally posted by @fmfDo you know the difference between evidence and proof?
If you see Hebrews 11:6 as being "evidence" that proof of your god figure's existence will not be given [by your god figure] what are these "15 Logical Reasons to Believe" something about or in aid of? Do you believe that your god figure deliberately provided we humans with the Shroud of Turin [b]despite Hebrews 11:6?[/b]
Originally posted by @romans1009My reading over the years; many discussions with all; manner of believers over five decades. You'd have to walk a fair few miles in my intellectual, spiritual and experiential shoes to end up with my perspectives. You should just stick with yours.
What is your evidence for this?
<I think this gimmick you're pushing about "why endure all that when they knew they were lying" is a red herring.>
I’m not pushing a gimmick, and it’s a pity you can’t discuss this subject civilly and without cheap insults.
<But if you believe the Gospels for the reasons you say you do, that's fine by me.>
Gee, thanks lol. I haven’t even scratched the surface for why I believe the Gospels.
<If your faith helps you to come to terms with the inevitability of death and gives your mental life form and structure and purpose, I am OK with that.>
Gee, thanks again. So glad you are Ok with my believing in God, though you are way off on the reasons.
Originally posted by @romans1009Another question that Fetchmyjunk asked me several times. Yes, I do. You have no proof that your god figure exists. But you do have enough of what you consider to be "evidence" to satisfy yourself. I get it. Do you believe that your god figure deliberately provided we humans with the Shroud of Turin despite Hebrews 11:6?
Do you know the difference between evidence and proof?
Originally posted by @fmfSo in other words, you have no evidence. Or at least none that you’re willing to share.
My reading over the years; many discussions with all; manner of believers over five decades. You'd have to walk a fair few miles in my intellectual, spiritual and experiential shoes to end up with my perspectives. You should just stick with yours.