Originally posted by @fmfYes, I believe that’s correct. But dive’s point was that I hadn’t addressed something, when I believe I had addressed it in that thread.
When you arrived on this thread, hit the ground running, and posted maybe 100+ times, didn't you steadfastly refuse to read any of the first 30+ pages of it?
-Removed-I think you’re mistaken. Messianic prophecies provide both evidence of God and that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.
It makes no difference if the writers of the New Testament knew of the Old Testament knew of the Old Testament and the prophecies contained therein unless you’re saying the writers of the New Testament made things up and wrote falsehoods.
Originally posted by @romans1009There was no reason for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem. (The whole census thing is a nonsense/non-evidenced, and even if there had been a census there would have been no reason to have to return to their place of birth to register).
I don’t see what role faith plays in the fulfillment of prophecies. Either the prophecies were fulfilled or they weren’t - faith really has nothing to do with it, unless your faith is on the writers of the New Testament accurately and truthfully describing events.
This is just another example of facts being manipulated to fit prophecies.
Here’s an excerpt from Bart Ehrman’s book that talks about this:
“The historical problems with Luke are even more pronounced. For one thing, we have relatively good records for the reign of Caesar Augustus,** and there is no mention anywhere in any of them of an empire-wide census for which everyone had to register by returning to their ancestral home.**
And how could such a thing even be imagined? Joesph returns to Bethlehem because his ancestor David was born there. But David lived a thousand years before Joseph.** Are we to imagine that everyone in the Roman Empire was required to return to the homes of their ancestors from a thousand years earlier? **
If we had a new worldwide census today and each of us had to return to the towns of our ancestors a thousand years back—where would you go?
Can you imagine the total disruption of human life that this kind of universal exodus would require?
And can you imagine that such a project would never be mentioned in any of the newspapers? There is not a single reference to any such census in any ancient source, apart from Luke.
Why then does Luke say there was such a census? The answer may seem obvious to you.
He wanted Jesus to be born in Bethlehem, even though he knew he came from Nazareth … there is a prophecy in the Old Testament book of Micah that a savior would come from Bethlehem. What were these Gospel writer to do with the fact that it was widely known that Jesus came from Nazareth? They had to come up with a narrative that explained how he came from Nazareth, in Galilee, a little one-horse town that no one had ever heard of, but was born in Bethlehem, the home of King David, royal ancestor of the Messiah.”
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeLot of speculation there and trying to fit a Biblical practice into modern times on top of it
There was no reason for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem. (The whole census thing is a nonsense/non-evidenced, and even if there had been a census there would have been no reason to have to return to their place of birth to register).
This is just another example of facts being manipulated to fit prophecies.
Here’s an excerpt from Bart ...[text shortened]... ver heard of, but was born in Bethlehem, the home of King David, royal ancestor of the Messiah.”
Originally posted by @romans1009Go spend some time with a copy of Bart Ehrman’s book.
Lot of speculation there and trying to fit a Biblical practice into modern times on top of it
There was no census. Joseph and Mary had no reason to go to Bethlehem. The prophecy wasn't fulfilled.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI trust the Bible.
Go spend some time with a copy of Bart Ehrman’s book.
There was no census. Joseph and Mary had no reason to go to Bethlehem. The prophecy wasn't fulfilled.
You can trust Bart Ehrman.
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.”
(Psalm 118:8)
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.”
(Jeremiah 17:5-8)
Originally posted by @romans1009And your non-biblical evidence the census concerned took place?!
I trust the Bible.
You can trust Bart Ehrman.
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.”
(Psalm 118:8)
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but ...[text shortened]... e careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.”
(Jeremiah 17:5-8)
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeGive this a read. It’s pretty long, and, to be perfectly honest, I only read a little of it because I don’t need non-Biblical sources to prove the inerrancy of the Bible.
And your non-biblical evidence the census concerned took place?!
https://crossexamined.org/really-census-time-caesar-augustus/