Originally posted by 667joe
Then, by your logic, god had to have had it's own creator also.

Are you saying that someone 'painted' the 'painter'? Not necessarily. That analogy doesn't hold in that context.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So you say. Stephen Hawking tends to disagree.

I believe that even Hawking says that it is impossible to know if this universe is in its first iteration or its five hundredth.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
God covers his tracks😉

Precisely. Free will is that important.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Are you saying that someone 'painted' the 'painter'? Not necessarily. That analogy doesn't hold in that context.

When the analogy doesn't hold out, it may be an indication that the original argument was flawed. The original argument says 'we see something, we assume a creator'. Except the analogy takes something which, by definition, is known to have a creator then essentially states the obvious and pretends that some sort of argument has been made.

Originally posted by apathist
I can tell you! Really! Hang on...

ahem...

yesterday

Did you have a point, an answer, some meaning behind this?

Originally posted by apathist
You overthink my joke. But seriously, if we understand what 'evidence' means well enough to accept big bang theory, some other conclusions that must be drawn are:

> the 'yesterday' before the big bang is beyond the limits of our current science and is in the realm of philosophy, which does happen to be where theism resides;

> therefore science and rel ...[text shortened]... stic musings which wander all over the map, and deserves no special place for the rational human

Evidence towards the universe being created I think is obvious, no one has come up with
any other explanation other than pushing the beginning out a little more.

The BB does not address the beginning of all things, it is simply another story how
everything was already here then changed into something else. So the question of where
it all came from wasn't address, just another step in the ever ending saga of it was this,
than it was that, then it turned into this.

Originally posted by 667joe
Then, by your logic, god had to have had it's own creator also.

Nope, paintings come from painters which has nothing do with where painters come from.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Evidence towards the universe being created I think is obvious, no one has come up with
any other explanation other than pushing the beginning out a little more.

The BB does not address the beginning of all things, it is simply another story how
everything was already here then changed into something else. So the question of where
it all came from was ...[text shortened]... nother step in the ever ending saga of it was this,
than it was that, then it turned into this.

Why do you assume there is a beginning? Why couldn't the universe always have existed?

You, after all, have set the precedent by claiming God to be eternal and outside the human concept of time.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Why do you assume there is a beginning? Why couldn't the universe always have existed?

You, after all, have set the precedent by claiming God to be eternal and outside the human concept of time.

So you are one of those who doesn't need to see something to believe it.

Originally posted by Eladar
So you are one of those who doesn't need to see something to believe it.

Surely sir you are describing a theist?!

I'm merely putting forward an idea shared by millions of Jainists.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Surely sir you are describing a theist?!

I'm merely putting forward an idea shared by millions of Jainists.

Have you ever seen anything simply exist without beginning so you know that it is possible?

Originally posted by Eladar
Have you ever seen anything simply exist without beginning so you know that it is possible?

Yes sir, the universe.

Can you say the same to support your notion of an eternal God?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Yes sir, the universe.

Can you say the same to support your notion of an eternal God?

Nice to know your statement of faith.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Evidence towards the universe being created I think is obvious, no one has come up with
any other explanation other than pushing the beginning out a little more.

Nonsense. There are plenty of explanations. Its just that none of them have any evidence in their favour, creation included.

Originally posted by Eladar
Nice to know your statement of faith.

So no, you have nothing with which to support your notion of an eternal God?