Exclusive claim to God

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is what I find disturbing. That those who call themselves Christians and praise 'Lord, Lord' don't get past themselves. THINK OF ONE

I can't dispute what you are saying. I have also known Christians who just don't seem to get it and they often get caught up in religiosity and legalism at the expense of spirituality. The Christian religion is ab ...[text shortened]... y are to the "self" I am also disturbed because I think this is not what God would want.

Not to put words in your mouth, but I think you are saying that Christ is the Truth, though not necessarily Christianity as it has been practiced. I'd have to agree.

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to put down Buddhism, especially since you seem to have a number of misconceptions about it. For one, I don't think Buddhism teaches the practice of self-immolation. For another, while each individual had his own reasons, I don't think it's as "a demonstration of how non attached they are to the 'self'", so much as it has been done as a protest against man's inhumanity to man. Perhaps living in such a world is too much to bear.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I only know that I love Truth. I only know that Truth and Love are inseparable. That Love is Truth in action. That the self keeps one from knowing and following Truth.THINK OF ONE

But there are some many interpretaytions of Love and Truth. Hitler saw himself as following the "truth" . His truth was that the Arriyans were the master race based partl ...[text shortened]... not to everyone else or me. That's why I want you to describe it. I can't read your mind!

Like I said, it's difficult to define and you seem to want more, so I'll try to work through it with you. I see Truth as absolute. That means that it's not relative. So it doesn't matter how many "interpretations" there are, there's only one Truth. I think that Christianity and Buddhism seek the same Truth. Believe me, I don't think that "everyone has exactly the same position on these concepts" and I don't think it's "self evident what [I] mean". Like I said earlier, one can only get an approximation of Truth.

Perhaps you are looking for what is Truth in regards to human behavior? Or is it something else?

When hats attack tarantulas ingest sulphur to hurt island snakes. To help rain eat apples daily and books open under tables.
(Good code, eh?)
😉

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I said, it's difficult to define and you seem to want more, so I'll try to work through it with you. I see Truth as absolute. That means that it's not relative. So it doesn't matter how many "interpretations" there are, there's only one Truth. I think that Christianity and Buddhism seek the same Truth. Believe me, I don't think that "everyone has exa ...[text shortened]... e looking for what is Truth in regards to human behavior? Or is it something else?

Ok , I also believe truth is an absolute and not relative , and subject to false interpretations. There is only one truth I agree.

Now , here's my point , an atheist could easily believe this , so could a theist , a scientist would go for this and so might a poet. Hitler could believe this and so could Ghandi. So now you need to narrow it down a bit more so that your particular definition of truth does not include vast , opposing swathes of the human population. You need to differentiate . If that means excluding some concepts and including others at their expense then tough , that's the way truth is I'm afraid.You may hate the fact that it is that way , but truth is unconcerned with what you are uncomfortable with. It can only be what it is.

I feel that if I ask you what sport you are into you would say something like "to me sport is an activity that men participate in on a social level to interact with each other physically blah blah etc etc" instead of answering the question. What am I to think? Just fast forward the trailers mate and get to the car chase at the heart of the film , we'll be here all day at this rate!

So I ask (yet again) ....What is truth? What does it look like? How does your version of truth differ from Christianity's ? What does your truth include /exclude? Is it personal? etc etc etc etc etc. I've laid my cards down , now let's see yours!

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , I also believe truth is an absolute and not relative , and subject to false interpretations. There is only one truth I agree.

Now , here's my point , an atheist could easily believe this , so could a theist , a scientist would go for this and so might a poet. Hitler could believe this and so could Ghandi. So now you need to narrow it down a b ...[text shortened]... de? Is it personal? etc etc etc etc etc. I've laid my cards down , now let's see yours!

If anyone is uncomfortable with Truth, it is you. You seem to have trouble with the idea of things being beyond your comprehension, so you speak of them in definitive terms even though in reality you only have your opinion. Since you have trouble dealing with the abstract, I'll once again try to make things even more concrete.

I can't think of any differences between what Jesus taught and what I see as Truth: Seek Truth; be honest; be fair; be moral; be ethical; be humble; be compassionate; don't lie; don't kill; don't steal; cease the desires of the self: pride, greed, fame, the senses, etc.; take care of your body and mind; take care of others; take care of the environment; etc. I guess I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea.

That said, I'm quite sure there are a number of differences between what I see as Truth and Christianity. The problem would be in defining Christianity since it's difficult to think of it as a homogeny with there being so many views.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you've "laid [your] cards down". Your description of what you believe God to be, really isn't much less nebulous than what I had given you earlier about Truth. There was just more verbiage.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If anyone is uncomfortable with Truth, it is you. You seem to have trouble with the idea of things being beyond your comprehension, so you speak of them in definitive terms even though in reality you only have your opinion. Since you have trouble dealing with the abstract, I'll once again try to make things even more concrete.

I can't think of any diff ...[text shortened]... ebulous than what I had given you earlier about Truth. There was just more verbiage.

re the expansion of your ideas - you've already started, and it's not even two days! 😉

" be honest; be fair; be moral; be ethical; be humble; be compassionate; don't lie; don't kill; don't steal; cease the desires of the self: pride, greed, fame, the senses, etc.; take care of your body and mind; take care of others; take care of the environment; etc. I guess I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea." THINK OF ONE




I know a staunch Atheist who would subscribe to most if not all of these and yet he would take you to task on spirituality , absolute truth , God and many other things. He would see these qualities as common sense humanism and ask why bring God or anything else into it. I also agree with most of not all of these concepts but you and I and him are all still coming from different places. We have massive arguments about the morality of invading Iraq for example , he interprets "taking care of others " in a very different way from me. This is my problem , the values are common place and often universal but their interpretation and application can be VERY different according to what kind of God (or non God) you think is at the heart of it all.

"Don't kid yourself into thinking that you've "laid [your] cards down". Your description of what you believe God to be, really isn't much less nebulous than what I had given you earlier about Truth. There was just more verbiage." THINK OF ONE

First of all let me say that I do not intend to get your back up or be confrontational. It's all a bit of fun really. Part of the debate, so nothing personal. In response to your point.......

One the contrary . I have told you that I believe that truth and God's love is in line with basic Christian belief , thus aligning myself specifically with a particular way of looking at God as opposed to other conflicting views.
I have told you God's love is active not passive in that he enters into history in a specific way.
I have told you that God is distinctive and exclusive all the way through by saying that God makes definitive statements about truth thus distciguishing himself from false ideas or non truth.( I am the truth the life and the way)
I have told you his love involves risk and suffering to himself.
I have told you his love is abundant and overflowing rather than reluctant or reserved.
I have told you this love can be specific and explicit rather than secretive.
I have even told you at which exact point in history that the ultimate reality about love, truth and God entered in to human history so that you can even know the name of the country where this love showed itself in Jesus!! How "un" nebulus can I be? You can even go there if you want.
I went on to tell you that God has feelings and is personal , not impersonal.
I even went on to try and explain quite vividly in words and metaphor and semi poetry how I personally felt about it all and what it means to me and many Chrsitians and give you an idea of the tenderness and pasion of God , yet to you this is "verbiage".

With all due respect sir , there are many more specific cards here than you have laid down , my ace is already out (Jesus) and I'm close to all my chips being in as well. Whereas I still don't know if you want to play ?

Rather than accusing me of being nebulus , you would be better to say whether you agree/disagree with any of my thoughts on love and truth. Then I would think that you might want to actually have a meaningful debate about these things. Or would that be too specific for you? So agree/disagree? or more waffle, what's it going to be?

"so you speak of them in definitive terms even though in reality you only have your opinion" THINK OF ONE

But wasn't it you that said that you believed truth to be "absolute and not open to interpretation". If this is so then truth is not a matter of opinion but a real thing that does not change. I assume that you think that the truth is not knowable and beyond comprehension? , if that is so then why bother arguing about it? We all have opinions but some opinions are going to be closer to truth than others.

I have no problem with mystery or abstraction , I do have a problem with woolly thinking though.

In any case , I would disagree with you if you said truth is "beyond" or "unknowable". God is love and love does not keep itself hidden away but shares itself actively and specifically because loves CARES , it WANTS to be known. What would you make of a god who stayed hidden in passivity?

This doesn't stop God being mysterious and awesome. But he's not abstract either. To a Christian God is here right now! That's the difference. If I am uncomfortable with abstracts it's because it's inconsistent with love. Your god ,whoever he is, is too secretive and seems not to care about letting anyone know who he is.

Originally posted by knightmeister
" be honest; be fair; be moral; be ethical; be humble; be compassionate; don't lie; don't kill; don't steal; cease the desires of the self: pride, greed, fame, the senses, etc.; take care of your body and mind; take care of others; take care of the environment; etc. I guess I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea." THINK OF ONE




I know a ...[text shortened]... different according to what kind of God (or non God) you think is at the heart of it all.

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to prove you are "right". I can easily take your argument and turn it around: I know Christians who would subscribe to your views on what kind of God is at the heart of them all that would have the same arguments about the morality of invading Iraq with you and would interpret "taking care of others" in a very different way from you. So what?

I guessing we both know Atheists who follow the ways of God much better than most Christians. Is that cool or what?

Originally posted by knightmeister
"Don't kid yourself into thinking that you've "laid [your] cards down". Your description of what you believe God to be, really isn't much less nebulous than what I had given you earlier about Truth. There was just more verbiage." THINK OF ONE

First of all let me say that I do not intend to get your back up or be confrontational. It's all a bit of fu too specific for you? So agree/disagree? or more waffle, what's it going to be?

But what have you really said:

You like the idea of the way you perceive God loves you.

Now you used a lot of verbiage and cited a number of examples, but ultimately, this is what it boils down to.

Beside, what really matters is whether you love God enough to fully understand and follow his ways.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"so you speak of them in definitive terms even though in reality you only have your opinion" THINK OF ONE

But wasn't it you that said that you believed truth to be "absolute and not open to interpretation". If this is so then truth is not a matter of opinion but a real thing that does not change. I assume that you think that the truth is not knowabl ...[text shortened]... he is, is too secretive and seems not to care about letting anyone know who he is.

Yes, Truth is a real thing that does not change and yes, it's there to be found and yes, there is a voice in all individuals that guide them to it. But you still only have your opinion, unless of course you see yourself as all-knowing. The way you go on, this is seeming to be quite likely 🙂

Yes, Truth is a real thing that does not change and yes, it's there to be found and yes, there is a voice in all individuals that guide them to it. But you still only have your opinion, unless of course you see yourself as all-knowing. The way you go on, this is seeming to be quite likelyTHINK OF ONE

So if truth is there to be found and it is real and unchanging and absolute as you say and we are being guided to it by a voice then how do we know when we have got there? Does there come a point where we say to ourselves "I have found truth and it no longer feels like it's just my opinion" ?
You portray truth like it is an objective real thing like, say , gravity is a real thing , and yet if you asked me my opinion on gravity I would say "Gravity makes things fall" . If you then said I was being "all knowing" because I was being quite definite about it I would tell you that gravity is not a matter of opinion , it's a fact plain and simple (just like truth is a fact) and I am entitled to be definite about it.

You seem to forget that this Jesus you love quoting also said "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free" , by "know" did he mean that it would just be opinion? I think not. Maybe he should have said "you will be able to form an approximation of what truth is and this opinion you hold will set you free" ? He didn't though did he.

"But what have you really said:

You like the idea of the way you perceive God loves you." THINK OF ONE

So do you believe that God loves you like that as well? If not why not?

By the way it's not an idea or perception , it's an experience. My spirituality is basically experiential not conceptual.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes, Truth is a real thing that does not change and yes, it's there to be found and yes, there is a voice in all individuals that guide them to it. But you still only have your opinion, unless of course you see yourself as all-knowing. The way you go on, this is seeming to be quite likelyTHINK OF ONE

So if truth is there to be found and it is real a ...[text shortened]... truth is and this opinion you hold will set you free" ? He didn't though did he.

From what I can tell, you've got a long way to go before you'll be 'free'.

Perhaps someday, if you find a way to love God instead of yourself 🙂