It's really quite simple, deny the self and follow Truth THINK OF ONE.
So tell me what truth is . I keep asking you. You say this phrase so often but you forget that it is a meaningless statement unless you define the word truth properly. You talk as if truth was some kind of universally understood phrase and everyone knows exactly what you mean by it. They don't!
From what I can tell, all of the religions with Truth and Love at the core can get one there. THINK OF ONE
No religion can get one there , not even Christianity. Only God can get one there and we either work with him or against him but it's not down to us or techniques , or the "why and the how" it's down to God in the end. He did not come to give us a handbook , he came to give us himself and to show us how to recieve him.
Sad to say, I don't see Christians having a better track record than the general population, which I find quite disturbing. The Bible has many references to denying the self, repentance, and following the Father, which seems to be largely ignored. It seems that most Christians are much more focused on God loving them, than on loving God. I'm not sure why this is so. Can you offer any insights?THINK OF ONE
It was the same in Jesus's time . He was surrounded by those who had a far worse record than the holy men at the time. The holy men were too busy slagging him off and seeing themselves as righteous. Jesus himself said he came for the sinners of the world not those who thought they didn't need saving. Christianity only makes sense once you realise you are desperate. If you don't know you are thirsty then you don't go to the tap. By rights churches should be full of the" lowest of the low" , did you not notice that in the NT Jesus spent much of his time around those who were considered "bad" people ?
As for why Christians focus on God loving them so much it's because God is the source of love not us. Unless we receive and focus on his love for us we can never learn to love either him , or ourseles or others. God is the source and we have to go to the source first. Once again the key difference in Christianity is the focus on what God does for us not what we do for him. It's God centred not man centred. Do you really think you can give God anything that he has not already given you first?
Originally posted by knightmeisterI guess I see Truth as the ultimate reality. As such it is absolute and eternal.
It's really quite simple, deny the self and follow Truth THINK OF ONE.
So tell me what truth is . I keep asking you. You say this phrase so often but you forget that it is a meaningless statement unless you define the word truth properly. You talk as if truth was some kind of universally understood phrase and everyone knows exactly what you mean by it. They don't!
Evidently you aren't satisfied with the above definition. You have to admit that, like Love, it's a very difficult thing to define. Do you have a definition?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBut saying you see truth as "the ultimate reality" and "absolute and eternal" doesn't say a lot. This ultimate reality could still be lots of quite very different things. Personal, impersonal , interested, disinterested , active or passive etc etc? This definition tells me very little about the nature of what you think God is like. I think you have misunderstood my question. If I ask you to describe a book and ask you what kind of book you believe in , I don't want you to tell me it's a thing with pages that has letters on , I want you to tell me if it's a romance novel or historical , or poetry etc etc.
[b]I guess I see Truth as the ultimate reality. As such it is absolute and eternal.
Evidently you aren't satisfied with the above definition. You have to admit that, like Love, it's a very difficult thing to define. Do you have a definition?[/b]
I don't have my own definition as such of truth and love but I have a definition of christian belief. ..
God is eternal without beginning or end and the Uncaused cause of all other causes. He is personal and can love as a human loves (infact infinitely more so).He is made of love and his love trembles deep in the heart of all creation. His love is compassionate and far reaching ( to the depths of the sea and beyond). His love wants to share and so the only reason that the universe exists at all is because within it he wanted to create creatures capable of sharing his nature with him. His love is abundant and forgiving and is as tender as a new born baby's head. His love is such that he would sooner die on a cross than lose you. His love is faithful consistent and patient , but most spectacularly of all...despite being omnipotent.., his love is incredibly vulnerable. His heart can be broken , he can weep and be betrayed. The torn body of Christ is symbolic of the father's torn heart. His love penetrates the hardest of hearts and the deepest of emotional wounds. His love is both glorious and infinitely humble all at the same time. His love does not stand by in a detached way , it is active and furious in it's pursuit of our hearts. God aches to bring us home. He wants our happiness more than we want it ourselves. His heart is bursting .That's why he couldn't stay in heaven , he just had to pay us a visit. This is love and truth and ultimate reality to a Christian. I don't see this love expressed or emphasised in any other religion in quite the same way as Christ expressed it.
Originally posted by knightmeisterPerhaps you misunderstood? I don't see Christians as denying the self, repenting or following the Father better than the general population. This is what I find disturbing. That those who call themselves Christians and praise 'Lord, Lord' don't get past themselves.
Sad to say, I don't see Christians having a better track record than the general population, which I find quite disturbing. The Bible has many references to denying the self, repentance, and following the Father, which seems to be largely ignored. It seems that most Christians are much more focused on God loving them, than on loving God. I'm not sure w ...[text shortened]... you really think you can give God anything that he has not already given you first?
Interestingly enough, I see having "the focus on what God does for us, not what we do for him" as being MAN centered. Man is at the center and others, in this case God, are there to meet HIS needs.
I don't see loving God as GIVING Him anything. I see it as one caring enough to truly understand and follow His ways.
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut isn't it ultimately incumbent on one to RECEIVE? Actually, I don't see following any established religion as a prerequisite to following the ways of God. But one must actively follow. Perhaps the role of religion is to get one ready to receive.
From what I can tell, all of the religions with Truth and Love at the core can get one there. THINK OF ONE
No religion can get one there , not even Christianity. Only God can get one there and we either work with him or against him but it's not down to us or techniques , or the "why and the how" it's down to God in the end. He did not come to give us a handbook , he came to give us himself and to show us how to recieve him.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI think it says one heck of a lot. Perhaps just not some of the things that are important to you. I feel no compulsion to assign human attributes to them as you do. I only know that I love Truth. I only know that Truth and Love are inseparable. That Love is Truth in action. That the self keeps one from knowing and following Truth.
But saying you see truth as "the ultimate reality" and "absolute and eternal" doesn't say a lot. This ultimate reality could still be lots of quite very different things. Personal, impersonal , interested, disinterested , active or passive etc etc? This definition tells me very little about the nature of what you think God is like. I think you have mis ...[text shortened]... or emphasised in any other religion in quite the same way as Christ expressed it.
I only know that I love Truth. I only know that Truth and Love are inseparable. That Love is Truth in action. That the self keeps one from knowing and following Truth.THINK OF ONE
But there are some many interpretaytions of Love and Truth. Hitler saw himself as following the "truth" . His truth was that the Arriyans were the master race based partly on Darwinian survival of the fittest. I also know of a man who killed his entire family in their sleep because he "loved" them so much he wanted to protect them from the shame of losing their house through bankruptcy. These are extreme examples , but in between you will find many different ideas about what is truth and what is love of which Christianity is one and Buddhism is another . Do you not realise this?
I understand it is convenient to your argument to pretend that everyone has exactly the same position on these concepts because to you it is self evident what you mean. The problem is that it's not to everyone else or me. That's why I want you to describe it. I can't read your mind!
This is what I find disturbing. That those who call themselves Christians and praise 'Lord, Lord' don't get past themselves. THINK OF ONE
I can't dispute what you are saying. I have also known Christians who just don't seem to get it and they often get caught up in religiosity and legalism at the expense of spirituality. The Christian religion is absolutely no guarantee that someone will turn out spiritual because religion can be distorted and used by man for all sorts of dubious purposes. Some where along the line the message gets lost. This does not stop me from saying that Christianity is the truth though , because that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water , and it's so easy and tempting to do this. Christian religion gets distorted but Christ is still the son of God and the way.
Incidently , when I see Buddhist monks set fire to themselves in public as a demonstration of how non attached they are to the "self" I am also disturbed because I think this is not what God would want.
Interestingly enough, I see having "the focus on what God does for us, not what we do for him" as being MAN centered. Man is at the center and others, in this case God, are there to meet HIS needs.THINK OF ONE
On the contrary , man is not at the centre because if we make God the focus and the centre then it becomes much more difficult to get caught up in pride and self. This is the perversity of pride when we end up saying to God ," look at these deeds I have done and the love I have shown to those around me . look at how well I have followed your ways , you must be so pleased with how good I am that you must let me into heaven" , God just thinks to himself , " all the things you have done or given are because I gave them to you first and helped you along the way. "
The reality is that receiving from God and focussing on what he does for us teaches us how to love. If he does not meet our needs how can we begin to meet other's needs? Focussing on his love for us produces love as a response and if we don't allow ourselves to be truely loved by God first how can we expect to share his love with others? That would be hypocrisy! Focussing on how dependant we are on God increases a sense of our own neediness and this increases humility and challenges the ego trip we are all on. Christianity means nothing to the man who does not embrace his own neediness. Once we figure out how needy we are we can then figure out what hurts others and how to meet their needs. I know it looks like it's the other way around but in practice it makes us more compassionate. Any good therapist knows they have to do the work on themselves first before they can counsel others. Remember all that stuff Jesus said about planks and eyes???
If we want to learn to love we have to go to the source of love , and that's not man I'm afraid.
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf one humbly loves God, one will come to understand God. If one understands God, one will know how to follow God.
Interestingly enough, I see having "the focus on what God does for us, not what we do for him" as being MAN centered. Man is at the center and others, in this case God, are there to meet HIS needs.THINK OF ONE
On the contrary , man is not at the centre because if we make God the focus and the centre then it becomes much more difficult to get caught to learn to love we have to go to the source of love , and that's not man I'm afraid.
I'm trying to make a distinction between making God the focus and making what God does for us the focus. In my mind, there's a very big difference. Many seem to get so wrapped up in feeling good that God loves them, that they never come to understand and follow God.