Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

@sonship said
@moonbus

[quote] The bible is not documented evidence of what happened written by God. It's someone's say-so. No more so than The Book of Mormon is God's documented evidence of what happened. No more so than the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads or Gilgamesh are God's documented evidence of what happened. It's someone's say-so. Those writings are what someone wanted people t ...[text shortened]... of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the sons of Zachariah, in the wilderness." [/b]

Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a valid response.
Like using Harry Potter to prove the truth of Harry Potter.
Like using Lord of the Rings to prove Lord of the Rings is true history.
What else you got ?

@kellyjay said
Please if you look at scripture you will see that the Bible was written by ~40 different people, over a span of 1500 years from all walks of life, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages. You can compare it to all the other works from other religions none of them compare to the writings of the Bible. The sources of these other scripture come close to that? Can mo ...[text shortened]... account of God through time touching the human race moving towards a goal fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Many works of fiction contain some valid history.
Even Dr Who contains many valid and true historical mentions ,but is not true.
What else you got ?

@sonship said
@moonbus

[quote] The bible is not documented evidence of what happened written by God. It's someone's say-so. No more so than The Book of Mormon is God's documented evidence of what happened. No more so than the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads or Gilgamesh are God's documented evidence of what happened. It's someone's say-so. Those writings are what someone wanted people t ...[text shortened]... of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the sons of Zachariah, in the wilderness." [/b]

2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register.
[b]Luke 2:1 - 3

There was no single census of the entire Roman world under Augustus. The census under Quirinus took place in 6 AD nine years after Herod the Great's death. The census would not have required them to travel. Luke's account is historically faulty.

@kellyjay said
You think people making claims about what might have happen billions of years ago is more valid than written accounts from people who lived through events?

Hmmm... Physical evidence (tens of thousands of fossils) not contradicting themselves or books which contradict themselves regularly and contradict numerous other books claiming the same thing.
Human written records are filled with misconceptions, exaggerations and outright lies and some truth. Humans lie, don't they ?

@caissad4

Hmmm... Physical evidence (tens of thousands of fossils) not contradicting themselves or books which contradict themselves regularly and contradict numerous other books claiming the same thing.
Human written records are filled with misconceptions, exaggerations and outright lies and some truth. Humans lie, don't they ?

What do fossils prove ?
Only this really - There are some animals that use to live on the earth which apparently no longer do - period.

From fossils we only can be sure that extinctions have taken place.

I don't think Darwinism is going to survive far into the 21rst century. Microbiology and Information technology as well as accumulating discoveries of the fine tuning of the universe for life will be too much for Darwinism.

Someone/s is going to have to come up with something to replace macro evolution.
Thinking students will realize that macro evolution is not the best explanation of the biosphere.

@caissad4 said
Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a valid response.
Like using Harry Potter to prove the truth of Harry Potter.
Like using Lord of the Rings to prove Lord of the Rings is true history.
What else you got ?

Your confused and not following the conversations well.

@caissad4 said
Many works of fiction contain some valid history.
Even Dr Who contains many valid and true historical mentions ,but is not true.
What else you got ?

How many historic claims were made in science that turned out false? If fiction mixed with facts disqualifies anything what is good enough?

Show me fiction in scripture.

@caissad4

Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a valid response.
Like using Harry Potter to prove the truth of Harry Potter.
Like using Lord of the Rings to prove Lord of the Rings is true history.
What else you got ?

Do you realize that the Scientific enterprise is founded upon philosophical assumptions which themselves cannot be proved by the scientific method?

Without reasoning in a circle could you prove that reasoning leads to truth ?
No whimsical protest from you when you have to take some things on (something like) faith or trust, in order to have confidence in your scientific method.

@sonship said
@caissad4

Hmmm... Physical evidence (tens of thousands of fossils) not contradicting themselves or books which contradict themselves regularly and contradict numerous other books claiming the same thing.
Human written records are filled with misconceptions, exaggerations and outright lies and some truth. Humans lie, don't they ?

What do fossils prov ...[text shortened]...
Thinking students will realize that macro evolution is not the best explanation of the biosphere.

This is wishful thinking. The evidence tracks evolution of particular species over tens of millions of years. Microbiology supports these conclusions. Darwin's theory of natural selection is about as good a theory as one can get outside of physics.

A particularly interesting gene is FOXP2 which is significant for language. It is highly conserved in vertebrates, but is different in humans due to around 20 base pair mutations. This is all thought to have happened about a quarter of a million years ago. Significant changes in phenotype do not automatically require huge alterations to the genome.

The video below is from Harvard and is part of a lecture course given by Professor Robert Sapolsky on behavioural biology. The relevant section starts at 40:32 and goes on for about 3 and a half minutes.

YouTube

@DeepThought

There was no single census of the entire Roman world under Augustus. The census under Quirinus took place in 6 AD nine years after Herod the Great's death. The census would not have required them to travel. Luke's account is historically faulty.

This gets technical. And not every expert in history would agree that "Luke's account is historically faulty".

If you're getting your information from popular Jesus Myther skeptic Dr. Richard Carrier I would double check with other historians of his equivalent level of training.

As I said the article that is before me now on this dispute is very long and would require hours of digestion.
I include only a portion of a concluding summary.

The Lukan census was toward the end of Herod's life, and some scholars have suggested that it was triggered/timed by Augustus/Q to assess the financial status of Herod's territories--in preparation for his death. This would be a preliminary step to creation of his will. Although the registration is empire-wide, the timing of each country must have been done on the basis of the availability of resources for it. Although my position is that it was a registration about a loyalty oath, there is no reason for it to exclude this other financial 'assessment' function as well (and it was no doubt covertly used for this purpose everywhere).

From article Does the data about Apamea and the Ciete support the view that Rome carried out registrations in client kingdoms?

[Draft: May 8, 2016]

Christian Thinktank

http://christianthinktank.com/tax4kings1.html

@DeepThought

I am looking at a lot of pro and con videos on things this week. I'll try to get to yours today.

This is wishful thinking.

Fossils do not PROVE relationships of descent.
It is realism I think.

The evidence tracks evolution of particular species over tens of millions of years.

But it is often circular reasoning because dates of rocks are assumed by the fossils found in them.
That's circular logic.

And soft tissue in bones supposedly 60 millions years old is a problem I think.
With a straight face you're going to tell me after Sixty MILLION YEARS !! you can find soft fleshy substance in a fossil supposedly that old ?

Not a hundred years - Not even a million years - 60 million years ! . and there is still some soft tissue intact there?
Something's fishy here.

Microbiology supports these conclusions. Darwin's theory of natural selection is about as good a theory as one can get outside of physics.

BY profession I was a computer programmer. And how microbiology's discoveries indicate to much "look ahead" and purposeful planning for me to think randomness and luck assembled life in this way.

And I'm the one hung up on wishful thinking ?

Signature in the Cell: Stephen Meyer Faces his Critics, pt. 1: The Presentation Author of Signature in the Cell.

YouTube

A particularly interesting gene is FOXP2 which is significant for language. It is highly conserved in vertebrates, but is different in humans due to around 20 base pair mutations. This is all thought to have happened about a quarter of a million years ago. Significant changes in phenotype do not automatically require huge alterations to the genome.

I hope to look at it.

The video below is from Harvard and is part of a lecture course given by Professor Robert Sapolsky on behavioural biology. The relevant section starts at 40:32 and goes on for about 3 and a half minutes.

See if you can survive chapters 8 and 9 of Lee Stobel's The Case For A Creator

chapter 8 - The Evidence of Biochemistry: The Complexity of Molecular Machines (Interview with Michael Behe)

chapter 9 - The Evidence of Biological Information: (The Challenge of DNA and the Origin of Life (interview with Stephen C. Meyer)

@kellyjay said
Your confused and not following the conversations well.

You appear to be acting completely deceptive again.
Christians are permitted to lie when defending their faith. Aren't they ?

@caissad4 said
You appear to be acting completely deceptive again.
Christians are permitted to lie when defending their faith. Aren't they ?

News to me. I was brought up as a Christian and no such exemption was mentioned.

@kellyjay said
How many historic claims were made in science that turned out false? If fiction mixed with facts disqualifies anything what is good enough?

Show me fiction in scripture.

Tell me that you think that the Earth is a disc divided into 4 quadrants with a firmament that has windows to let the rain come in from space.
That is what your holy, holy book says in Genesis.
There are many more fictitious events and people in your holy, holy book.

@deepthought said
News to me. I was brought up as a Christian and no such exemption was mentioned.

You would think that Christians would not, but my experience on this forum indicates otherwise. Not you though.