Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

@fmf said
It's worth bearing in mind, though, that many of the Christians here believe that people who do not believe the same things as they do - about themselves and the immortalizing consequences of those beliefs - thoroughly deserve to be tortured after they die for being "wicked and evil". I'm not sure that's a sign of "respect".

Yes, and that is a trap - a true Christian knows that it is not their place to judge anyone. The whole issue can be debated in a civil manner, without condemnation from any side - it just takes a little more effort.

@divegeester said
Supernaturally keeping someone alive and burning them for eternity is an act of unspeakable cruelty and is impossible to justify especially for simply not being a Christian when one dies.

Nobody mentioned time limits, not sure what you are on about.

You have said this before and I have corrected you and you still hang on this line of thought anyway. It is because of the sinful and wicked deeds, the sinful and wicked lives we have had that we are going to be cast out of God's Kingdom.

The only HOPE for God's grace is Jesus Christ, Jesus said it and it is throughout the Bible that He is the only Way. There are going to a large number of "Christians" or those that call themselves that going to Hell, they may believe, but unless Jesus is in their lives they will share the fate of all being cast into the lake of fire.

You can go on and on about how long someone is going to be suffering, but eternity is timeless once judgment is rendered, where you end up is where you end up, the opportunity for redemption is only here in this life, once gone its final.

Its in the Bible it isn't a personal truth only.

@johnsim03 said
Yes, and that is a trap - a true Christian knows that it is not their place to judge anyone. The whole issue can be debated in a civil manner, without condemnation from any side - it just takes a little more effort.

Whether a Christian judges me according to their doctrines or not is neither here nor there; it has no impact upon the reality in which I live. What is more interesting is whether or not they can make their assertions about damnation and condemnation seem morally coherent.

@johnsim03 said
No person of faith will ever be able to satisfy your scientific quest for the truth. They believe what they believe, and you believe what you believe. I think it is important that we respect the views of others, and not dismiss them out of hand for their beliefs.

I believe that I would like to see proof of the extraordinary claim being made concerning the existence of a god or gods.
That is what I believe.

@kellyjay said
Go back and look, but doubt repeating myself will do anything for someone who is just going to close their eyes and ears to anything said to them. However just because you asked I'll repeat myself again.
The universe
Life
Good evil
Israel and all the other people of the middle east
science
Bible

To name a few.
The promises of God that are made that been kept in my ...[text shortened]... ou, you should go to source since He says that when we seek Him with all our heart we will find Him.

Those are not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Least of all, the god you claim it is proof of. The bible cannot be used for proof of the bible.

@caissad4

Those are not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Least of all, the god you claim it is proof of. The bible cannot be used for proof of the bible.

As I recall you never proved that the claim that God is is an extraordinary claim.

You shrugged the question of in evasion several times.

One scientist, an agnostic ( I think ) , said at least that the existence of the supernatural in the creation of the universe had been proved.

His own words [my bolding]

“Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.”
― Robert Jastrow

More of his quotations -

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/87585.Robert_Jastrow

From Wiki

Jastrow attended Townsend Harris High School and was invited to attend Camp Rising Sun. He went to Columbia University for college and graduate school, where he received his A.B., A.M. and PhD in theoretical physics, in 1948. Afterwards he joined NASA when it was formed in 1958.

He was the first chairman of NASA’s Lunar Exploration Committee, which established the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon during the Apollo lunar landings. At the same time he was also the Chief of the Theoretical Division at NASA (1958–61). He became the founding director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in 1961, and served until his retirement from NASA in 1981. Concurrently he was also a Professor of Geophysics at Columbia University.

@sonship said
@caissad4

Those are not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Least of all, the god you claim it is proof of. The bible cannot be used for proof of the bible.

As I recall you never proved that the claim that God is is an extraordinary claim.

You shrugged the question of in evasion several times.

One scientist, an agnostic ( I think ) , sa ...[text shortened]... om NASA in 1981. Concurrently he was also a Professor of Geophysics at Columbia University. [/quote]

One scientist giving his opinion is hardly proof. Except of an inept scientist.
I bet you could find a scientist who has nonscientific opinions of hundreds of things.
I do not worship science, I seek what is true and can be tested.

@kellyjay said
None required as far as I am concern, if want to show me natural causes for everything to appear without God, that requires extraordinary proof, or how life began without God through some unguided natural processes with extraordinary proofs I will listen to you.

If no proof is required, do you accept that your position has not been arrived at through reason (considering evidence) but through faith?

If so, no 'reasoning' will ever reach you.

@caissad4 said
Those are not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Least of all, the god you claim it is proof of. The bible cannot be used for proof of the bible.

I don’t use the Bible for proof of the Bible, we are talking about God and the Bible without a doubt plays a part in that.

@caissad4 said
Those are not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Least of all, the god you claim it is proof of. The bible cannot be used for proof of the bible.

Evidence, you are the one looking for proof, mathematics you can do the math to come up with proof. You may as well say fossils can’t be used to validate evolution, radiometric dating methods can not be used to justify time predictions.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If no proof is required, do you accept that your position has not been arrived at through reason (considering evidence) but through faith?

If so, no 'reasoning' will ever reach you.

What don’t you look at through faith, you believe your mind formed over time so that it can process data correct? You believe an unguided process of natural selection without any predetermining desires molded your mind and you trust your mind’s conclusions with the knowledge nothing had a hand in error checking your processing abilities? You have faith that other’s minds also can process data and come up with valid conclusions? You believe you understand the universe you are in, and you and are not mistaken on anything, especially the past? You believe those that tell you things about the past actually know what they are talking about and are not mistaken on any key points!?

@kellyjay said
I don’t use the Bible for proof of the Bible, we are talking about God and the Bible without a doubt plays a part in that.

No, we are not talking about your bible.
We are talking about your extraordinary claim of the existence a god or gods.

@kellyjay said
Evidence, you are the one looking for proof, mathematics you can do the math to come up with proof. You may as well say fossils can’t be used to validate evolution, radiometric dating methods can not be used to justify time predictions.

And you are the one making the extraordinary claim of the existence of a god or gods. BTW, Fossils DO validate evolution. Do you have proof ?

@KellyJay

To the best of our knowledge evolution, like all natural processes, is purposeless and unguided. After all, scientists have no problem saying that the melting of glaciers, the movement of tectonic plates, or the decay of atoms are processes that are unguided and purposeless.

So when you hear people who accept evolution nevertheless refusing to admit that it’s unguided and purposeless, you know you’re dealing with someone who is osculating the rump of faith. For it’s only evolution that elicits these disclaimers, and it’s only evolution that requires such disclaimers to satisfy religious believers.

But evolution is, as far as we can tell, purposeless and unguided. There seems to be no direction, mutations are random, and we haven’t detected a teleological force or agent that pushes it in one direction. And it’s important to realize this: the great importance of Darwin’s theory of natural selection is that an unguided, purposeless process can nevertheless produce animals and plants that are exquisitely adapted to their environment. That’s why it’s called natural selection, not supernatural selection or simply selection.

Theistic evolution, then, is supernaturalism, and admitting its possibility denies everything we know about how evolution works. It waters down science with superstition. It should be no crime—in fact, it should be required—for teachers to tell student that natural selection is apparently a purposeless and unguided process (I use the word “apparently” because we’re not 100% sure, but really, do we need to tell physics students that the decay of an atom is “apparently” purposeless?).


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/whats-the-problem-with-unguided-evolution/

@caissad4 said
And you are the one making the extraordinary claim of the existence of a god or gods. BTW, Fossils DO validate evolution. Do you have proof ?

The only thing fossils do is lay in the dirt or whatever we find them. What we say about them is up to us.