Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

Wow, I won't repeat myself anymore, but you absolutely & totally cross the wires of the discussion to make it so that none of the related points are worth discussing with you.

Now, as for the 'hell' and 'uncoherent' comments, you have not actually brought out a debate. So, there's nothing to respond to there.

It looks like we're done for the time being.

But think about some of this a bit more, and the next time we have a debate it won't be like a shell game. It'll be more clear, concise, and lovely, and perhaps we can both make some spiritual progress.

God bless.

@philokalia said
Is that the obligations which Christians have are absurd, and certainly do not exist, and thus do not matter to anyone but Christians?

I am sure that Christians feel their obligations are real and not absurd.

I think the torturer god ideology is absurd.

You are, as a Christian, perfectly entitled to believe my moral analysis of that ideology is absurd.

I am not asking you to live your life according to my non-Christian beliefs.

I am not saying to you anything like: 'If it turns out I was right all along then I will have been right all along' in order to bolster the supposed universality of my lack-of--belief perspectives.

@philokalia said
Now, as for the 'hell' and 'uncoherent' comments, you have not actually brought out a debate. So, there's nothing to respond to there.

The questions I put to you in the past that you blanked out are still there. If you don't feel like revisiting them, just wait till they come up again and then feel free to jump in.

@philokalia said
But think about some of this a bit more, and the next time we have a debate it won't be like a shell game. It'll be more clear, concise, and lovely, and perhaps we can both make some spiritual progress.

"Spiritual progress"? The torturer god ideology is spiritual backwardness. It is moral darkness. It is human imagination and conjecture at its most depraved. It's also impossible to explain or justify. This is evidenced ~ in part, at least ~ by the intellectual and interpersonal behaviour of its proponents [like sonship and KellyJay] when questioned about it. sonship slips into his predictable paroxysm of informal fallacies, gimmicks and self-sanctified personal insults and KellyJay slips into his periods of sullen, wounded-pride silence.

Eternal punishment makes sense to me. But only because God having two sides - loving righteousness and hating unrighteousness.

As fallen sinners we want God to love righteousness and be indifferent towards unrighteousness.

We do not want God's hatred for unrighteousness to be as strong as His love for righteousness. The other side of His loving justification is His endless opposition to those refusing to be reconciled to God.

The harder and harder FMF reinforces himself against God, calling Him an ideology and a figure, the more it appears to me the unrepentant has to lose. God as a man gave up His life for the sinner. There is no further God can go.

If the unrepentant cannot stand this, he has no recourse except to accuse God of eagerness to punish, eagerness to include as many as He can, eagerness to inflict torture, delight in the lost being lost.

It doesn't work. Wild imagination to portray God as the monster will not bribe the conscience. The only peace to the conscience is to receive the Savior Jesus.

He was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. If you add details to make God's judgment to be bungling, incompetent, too eager, too wide, too cruel, too many, too not right, too sadistic, etc, it does no good. In the end you heaped up a lot of imagined rationals to accuse the Almighty uselessly and still be damned along with Satan.

It is better to agree with God that curse fell on His Son that we might be saved, justified, forgiven, and reconciled to God.

@sonship said
The harder and harder FMF reinforces himself against God, calling Him an ideology and a figure, the more it appears to me the unrepentant has to lose.

I am not "reinforcing" myself "against God". I don't think you know anything about God. I don't think you have any information about God to share. I think all you offer are assertions based on an ideology synthesized from ancient Hebrew mythology and its Jesus-cult offshoot. This is absolutely the realm of ideology. What is being questioned is the moral incoherence of your torturer god ideology. I am not talking to you about any actual god or gods. I am just talking about the credibility of the ideology you propagate.

@sonship said
If the unrepentant cannot stand this, he has no recourse except to accuse God of eagerness to punish, eagerness to include as many as He can, eagerness to inflict torture, delight in the lost being lost.

I am not "accusing God" of anything. I am talking about the things you believe about hatefulness, vengeance, violence and morality.

@sonship said
Eternal punishment makes sense to me.

What is the moral purpose of applying it to people who found the threat not credible while they were alive? If it didn't persuade people to believe while they were living, why torture non-believers after they die? How is not-being-persuaded so bad that it warrants never-ending torture? And why would the torture be carried out in secret and therefore not in a way that could bring non-believers to God while they were still alive? What would be the moral purpose of providing unequivocal proof of God's existence to non-believers after they die, and not drawing non-believers into the Christian life while they are still alive? It all just seems so manmade and morally absurd.

@sonship said
He was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

"Righteousness"? Blimey. Why doesn't the God figure in your ideology reveal himself to all mankind rather than doing it in a way that most human beings find not credible and then torturing them ~ billions and billions and billions of them ~ for being unconvinced or ignorant? It sounds like nonsense dreamed up by humans with a really, really dark imagination.

@sonship said
Eternal punishment makes sense to me. But only because God having two sides - loving righteousness and hating unrighteousness.

As fallen sinners we want God to love righteousness and be indifferent towards unrighteousness.

We do not want God's hatred for unrighteousness to be as strong as His love for righteousness. The other side of His loving justification is His en ...[text shortened]... h God that curse fell on His Son that we might be saved, justified, forgiven, and reconciled to God.

Eternal punishment makes sense to me. But only because God having two sides - loving righteousness and hating unrighteousness. As fallen sinners we want God to love righteousness and be indifferent towards unrighteousness. We do not want God's hatred for unrighteousness to be as strong as His love for righteousness. The other side of His loving justification is His endless opposition to those refusing to be reconciled to God. The harder and harder FMF reinforces himself against God, calling Him an ideology and a figure, the more it appears to me the unrepentant has to lose. God as a man gave up His life for the sinner. There is no further God can go. If the unrepentant cannot stand this, he has no recourse except to accuse God of eagerness to punish, eagerness to include as many as He can, eagerness to inflict torture, delight in the lost being lost. It doesn't work. Wild imagination to portray God as the monster will not bribe the conscience. The only peace to the conscience is to receive the Savior Jesus. He was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. If you add details to make God's judgment to be bungling, incompetent, too eager, too wide, too cruel, too many, too not right, too sadistic, etc, it does no good. In the end you heaped up a lot of imagined rationals to accuse the Almighty uselessly and still be damned along with Satan. It is better to agree with God that curse fell on His Son that we might be saved, justified, forgiven, and reconciled to God.

Why is it morally justifiable to torture someone, endlessly - supernaturally kept alive in order to feel the suffering - for not believing all this stuff, none of which you can prove is true, and all of which is merely a matter of personal faith for you?

@sonship said
We do not want God's hatred for unrighteousness to be as strong as His love for righteousness. The other side of His loving justification is His endless opposition to those refusing to be reconciled to God.

"Refusing"? It's like saying an atheist is "refusing" to become a Sikh. "Refusing to be reconciled to God" is just a pretentious way of saying someone does not happen to believe the same things as you do.

Why would the God figure in your ideology feel such anger and hatred and vengeance towards people who simply lack a certain belief?

How on Earth can the God figure in your ideology be so ignorant about the fact human beings have all manner of religious beliefs without "refusing to be reconciled" to the one that you just so happen to be convinced exists?

It's so unutterably narcissistic of you to believe that demented supernatural violence is the "morally perfect" treatment that should be meted out to people whose beliefs are different from yours.

@caissad4 said
Yeah ,yeah. You fruitcakes have been saying that for over a thousand years and just what has happened ? Zip, zero, nothing and nada.
Threats and little else, you are like incompetent terrorists.

Yea, in the last days that is going to be a common saying. The thing is God always acts in perfect harmony with Himself. Right now there are choices we have He loves us, He is trying to bring us back to Him to avoid the same judgment for all sinners. He is doing this because without that grace that He won for us righteously we are facing the same wrath the Devil and His angels are facing. His wrath is abiding upon us His justice and goodness hate evil and wickedness. God is the creator of all things, so in His Kingdom you are either in it, or cast out of it there are no other options.

Satan is going to receive the wrath of God and there will no mercy mixed into it, no letting up because his pain and suffering will be too much for Him, he is going to put some place prepared just for Him, and those that are also in His rebellion. You get God's grace or His wrath, there are no other choices, either you receive will be the one you are going to have forever.

2 Peter 3:2-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

@sonship said
Eternal punishment makes sense to me. But only because God having two sides - loving righteousness and hating unrighteousness.

As fallen sinners we want God to love righteousness and be indifferent towards unrighteousness.

We do not want God's hatred for unrighteousness to be as strong as His love for righteousness. The other side of His loving justification is His en ...[text shortened]... h God that curse fell on His Son that we might be saved, justified, forgiven, and reconciled to God.

I'd settle for a proportionate God.

Eye for an eye, fair enough. Eternal punishment for a lack of belief,...not so much.

@kellyjay said

Yea, in the last days that is going to be a common saying. The thing is God always acts in perfect harmony with Himself. Right now there are choices we have He loves us, He is trying to bring us back to Him to avoid the same judgment for all sinners. He is doing this because without that grace that He won for us righteously we are facing the same wrath the Devil and His angels are facing. His wrath is abiding upon us His justice and goodness hate evil and wickedness. God is the creator of all things, so in His Kingdom you are either in it, or cast out of it there are no other options. Satan is going to receive the wrath of God and there will no mercy mixed into it, no letting up because his pain and suffering will be too much for Him, he is going to put some place prepared just for Him, and those that are also in His rebellion. You get God's grace or His wrath, there are no other choices, either you receive will be the one you are going to have forever.

cassaid4, you are getting absolutely hosed with industrial-strength doubleplusgoodduckspeak here.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I'd settle for a proportionate God.

Eye for an eye, fair enough. Eternal punishment for a lack of belief,...not so much.

You are looking at it with one small tiny point, a lack of belief, as if that was all that is going on. Hardly true when everything about us is being brought to judgment by the One who paid for our sins.