Faith Reckoned as Righteousness

Originally posted by sonship
In all of these discussions I, when I have used [b]Matthew 25:32-46 it has NOT been to make a point about Justification by Faith. It has been to make a point about the teaching of eternal punishment being a teaching coming out of the mouth of Jesus Himself.

The condemnation of the goats is a condemnation concerning people alive at the time of the se ...[text shortened]... as they treated these people down to the least of them, SO they treated the Son of Man - Christ.[/b]

Have you no shame? Its about the treatment of refugees? Refugees ? You are shamelessly adding false doctrines to clear statements by Jesus. The whole of Matt 25 is about how Jesus is going to judge ALL NATIONS, and who is it that will be allowed to enter the Kingdom of God.
- the parable of the wise and foolish virgins
- the parable of the talents
- the story of the sheep and the goats

Who enters the Kingdom of God?
The Christians who profess their faith ? - NO!
The Christians who read their Bible every day ? - NO!
Those who hide their talents - NO !
The Christians who call Jesus name 100 times a day ? - Hell NO !!

Here are they who will enter Gods Kingdom
The wise prepared people ie prepared for Christ - YES
Those who do good work with their talents - YES
People who do good works - help. give, visit, those in need - YES

That refugees nonsense is a fabrication of the once saved always saved Christians who know that that passage is in direct contradiction of their false doctrine. These are the Christians that want to profess their faith, DO NOTHING and still enter the Kingdom of God.... well Jesus says that aint going to happen. ... tough luck

Originally posted by sonship
In all of these discussions I, when I have used [b]Matthew 25:32-46 it has NOT been to make a point about Justification by Faith. It has been to make a point about the teaching of eternal punishment being a teaching coming out of the mouth of Jesus Himself.

The condemnation of the goats is a condemnation concerning people alive at the time of the se ...[text shortened]... as they treated these people down to the least of them, SO they treated the Son of Man - Christ.[/b]

There two times Jesus goes into detail about judgment day. Matt 7 and 25

One group they end up saying this to the Lord,
"37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?"

Another groups says this,

"22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

One wasn't concern about works they just simply did what was the right thing to do and
so they had to ask about when they did the things the Lord said, the other came before
God and presented Him with the list of the good works.

The list of good works wasn't denied, what was denied was that Jesus knew them, and
since He did not they were in their sins. Some of the things they claimed had to have had
the Spirit of God involved too, since devils don't come out without Him. Yet, they did not
follow the Lord, they did not know the Lord, they died in their sins.

Rajk, do you know what these verses are talking about?

Rom 4:9-15
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Rajk, do you know what these verses are talking about?

[b]Rom 4:9-15
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he ...[text shortened]... ause the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV[/b]

Checkbaiter is back in town. Doing a hit and run or are you going to finish the discussion?

I suspect it is you that dont know what Paul is talking about

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Rajk, do you know what these verses are talking about?

[b]Rom 4:9-15
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he ...[text shortened]... ause the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV[/b]

This is very good.

Let me point out on crucial thing. In this passage Paul uses Abraham as the leading example of the principle of being justified by faith.

Notice that the END RESULT of Justification is to be an heir of the world.
The GOAL of Justification is that the justified one be ready to be an heir of the world.

" For it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom. 4:13)

From our perspective we often stop and the blessedness of just being forgiven.

"Blessed are t hey whose lawlessnesses have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall by no means account sin." (vs. 7,8)

And it is indeed blessed to be Justified, redeemed, reconciled to God with full forgiveness.
But from the standpoint of God's eternal purpose for creating man this Justification is not an end in itself. Rather it is that man may come back to the purpose of having God's image and God's dominion over the earth.

Therefore in the example of Abraham the "father" of all those Justified by Faith to be made an "heir of the world" is on God's heart.

" ... the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith." (See Rom. 4:13)

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit [not heaven per se, but ] the earth." (Matt. 5:5)

Lord Jesus, You must justify me by faith to fulfill God's plan that His saved people inherit the earth.

Originally posted by KellyJay

One wasn't concern about works they just simply did what was the right thing to do and
so they had to ask about when they did the things the Lord said, the other came before
God and presented Him with the list of the good works.

The list of good works wasn't denied, what was denied was that Jesus knew them, and
since He did not they were in their sins. Some of the things they claimed had to have had
the Spirit of God involved too, since devils don't come out without Him. Yet, they did not
follow the Lord, they did not know the Lord, they died in their sins.

That is an interesting treatment of Matthew 7 with Matthew 25.
Though I have been taught concerning Matthew 25 differently I think your analysis is at least safe. And I think it does exalt Christ and has the effect to influence us to want to be close to Him.

That refugees nonsense is a fabrication of the once saved always saved Christians who know that that passage is in direct contradiction of their false doctrine. These are the Christians that want to profess their faith, DO NOTHING and still enter the Kingdom of God.... well Jesus says that aint going to happen. ... tough luck

Rajk999 does not know the book of Revelation well. And he doesn't understand how the prediction of Matthew 25:31-46 coincides with the events of the great tribulation.

His folksy vernacular style may be cute. His ignorance of prophecy and how Matthew and Revelation correspond with each other is not good.

Many Bible readers do not realize that the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is not the last judgment. It is the judgment before the millennial kingdom and not the great white throne judgment after the end of the millennial kingdom.

I apologize for getting WAY off the track the OP.

Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness.
Abraham is set forth as the grand example of justification by faith in the main book of basic Christian doctrine - Romans.

He had nothing to boast of in himself before God.

"For if Abraham was justified out of works, he has something to boast in, but not before God.

For what does the Scripture say ? And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness." (Rom. 4:2,3)

Before God Abraham had nothing to boast in as if he were receiving "wages" for his work.

" Now to the one who works, his wages are not accounted according to grace, but according to what is due.

But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness." (vs. 4,5)

Marvelous !

Originally posted by sonship

That refugees nonsense is a fabrication of the once saved always saved Christians who know that that passage is in direct contradiction of their false doctrine. These are the Christians that want to profess their faith, DO NOTHING and still enter the Kingdom of God.... well Jesus says that aint going to happen. ... tough luck

Rajk999 doe ...[text shortened]... nt after the end of the millennial kingdom.

I apologize for getting WAY off the track the OP.

I think you should also apologize for being deceitful.

When discussing eternal torment and to justify your doctrine of eternal torment, you use the Matt 25 passage where Jesus speaks of casting some into the lake of fire as this is everlasting punishment: which you say takes place AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIAL PERIOD.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Matthew 25:46 KJV)

Now because it suits your doctrine you say that this very same passage:

... the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is not the last judgment. It is the judgment before the millennial kingdom and not the great white throne judgment after the end of the millennial kingdom.

So which is it - BEFORE OR AFTER?

Originally posted by Rajk999

I think you should also apologize for being deceitful.

I have noticed that sometimes when someone's arguments are weak, they will instead begin to demand that some apology is owed them. So now are you going to spend time and labor trying to make me say "I'm sorry" ?


I don't insist you apologize for the abject weakness of your argument such that it called for you telling me to see my psychiatrist. I should rather have been embarrassed for you.


When discussing eternal torment and to justify your doctrine of eternal torment, you use the Matt 25 passage where Jesus speaks of casting some into the lake of fire as this is everlasting punishment: which you say takes place AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIAL PERIOD.
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The judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 takes place at the commencement of the millennial kingdom.

Since it says the eternal fire "prepared for the devil and his angels" this may mean the devil and his angels have not yet been put there.

Since it is from the Lord Jesus sitting on the throne of His glory it must take place in the Holy Land where Christ will be enthroned following His second coming. This is at the beginning of the millennium.

Since the nations are gathered before Him, this is the living nations and not all the dead which gather before the great white throne at the END of the millennium.

If you argue that these are only temporarily punished it doesn't negate the fact that it is called the eternal fire of eternal punishement. And there is nothing there to suggest that it is not an eternal destiny. It is put in contrast to those who enter into eternal life.

" And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

I don't see much reason to not assume these "goats" among the living nations do not go into their eternal destiny at that time.

Show me why you think "go away into into eternal punishment" I should take as "go away into [NOT] eternal punishment."


And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Matthew 25:46 KJV)

Now because it suits your doctrine you say that this very same passage:
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The words are very plain and clear. There is no need to force verse 46 to conform to "my doctrine". I conform my belief to what the words SAY.

If you have some reason to think that in this judgment it means the condemned go away into [NOT] eternal punishment, then explain it.

Until you can do that, don't complain that I am forcing the plain text to my outlandish idea. The idea is coming right out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Right ?

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

... the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is not the last judgment. It is the judgment before the millennial kingdom and not the great white throne judgment after the end of the millennial kingdom.
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That is correct.
The judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is not the last judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20.


So which is it - BEFORE OR AFTER?
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The casting of some into the eternal fire in Matthew 25:31-46 is following the great tribulation and at the second coming of Christ at the commencement of the millennial kingdom.

The judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20 is at the end of the millennium before eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.

The Matthew 25:31-46 judgment is of the LIVING who are alive on the earth after the great tribulation. They come before Him as physically living survivors of that time.

Christ's judgment of the living BEFORE the millennium (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1) is different from His judgment of the dead at the great white throne AFTER the millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).

Notice that the false prophet and the Antichrist precede Satan into that fire by a thousand years (Rev. 20:10) So it must be with the followers of Antichrist BEFORE the millennum joined by the devil and his angels perhaps latter.

" ... the eternal fire ... PREPARED ... for the devil and his angels"

This does not mean that the devil and his angels cannot be punished in some fashion before they go to that final fire. We know that God knows how to keep the condemned under punishment UNTIL ... that final judgment.

" The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT for the day of judgment." (2 Pet. 2:9)

Originally posted by sonship

I think you should also apologize for being deceitful.

I have noticed that sometimes when someone's arguments are weak, they will instead begin to demand that some apology is owed them. So now are you going to spend time and labor trying to make me say "I'm sorry" ?


I don't insist you apologize for the abject weakness of your ar ...[text shortened]... ow to KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT for the day of judgment." (2 Pet. 2:9) [/quote][/b]

So you not sure whether it is before or after. You just switch depending on which doctrine you want to promote at the time.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Checkbaiter is back in town. Doing a hit and run or are you going to finish the discussion?

I suspect it is you that dont know what Paul is talking about

The point is Abraham's faith (trust, believing) was reckoned to him as righteousness before he was circumcised (the law, works). Even your little brain, if it was not blinded could put 2 and 2 together.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The point is Abraham's faith (trust, believing) was reckoned to him as righteousness [b]before he was circumcised (the law, works). Even your little brain, if it was not blinded could put 2 and 2 together.[/b]

Having a small part of one's penis compulsorily cut off when still young is a proxy for good works according to your moral and spiritual mind map?

Originally posted by Rajk999
So you not sure whether it is before or after. You just switch depending on which doctrine you want to promote at the time.

I am sure of what I wrote. You are confused.

Christ is the PLACE of propitiation. Christ is not only the propitiator. And Christ is not only the propitiation. But the New Testament says that Christ is that PLACE of propitiation.

In the ark of the covenant there was a certain place on that structure where God would meet with the priest. It was a kind of lid. Under that lid was the law of Moses written on tablets. Above that lid were two creatures carved in gold called cherubim. The Bible says they were the cherubim of glory.

The idea was that below this place was the law of Moses condemning man.
Above this place were the observing cherubim who stand for the matchless holy glory of God.

This was the main parts of the ark of the covenant. And the lid had to be sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory sacrifice before the priest representing the people could come to meet with God before the ark of the covenant. King James Version calls this lid the "mercy seat". But the better translation says this is "the propitiation cover". (Propitiation is very similar in meaning to the Old Testament expiation , an atoning sacrifice).

Here is where Paul says that Christ IS this very propitiation cover:

" Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Whom God set forth as a PROPITIATION PLACE through faith in His blood, ... "(See Romans 3:24,254a)

Jesus Christ is the " PLACE " in the universe where God and man can meet. And man is not condemned by the law of God, is redeemed by the blood of Christ, and is not destroyed by the resplendent glory of God. Here at this living PLACE of Christ the demand for God's holiness, righteousness, and glory are met so that man and God may come together.

This is beyond marvelous.