19 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAnd I would argue that the did not understand your givens nor in reality did they actually believe they were being offered a gift ie they answered in the hypothetical.
To find such people, one need to look no further than this thread, wherein at least one person already declared their rejection of the gift even in light of the remaining assumption.
So no, you have not shown the existence of such people, and the fact that your example is invalid shows that you could well be mistaken about any other cases you think you may know.
But you're really just going around the question without giving it an honest response.
I gave an honest response - several times. You just don't like it.
If you wouldn't reject said gift, then you're not part of the group in question.
How is my being part of the group or not part of it relevant? I thought it would be obvious from the beginning that I was not part of the group.
As you stated, a person would have to be insane or burdened with a death wish to reject such a gift. I agree.
Those are the first things I thought of. I am less convinced that a death wish is a burden, and I suspect it is not uncommon.
19 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI bet you cant find one person on this forum who believes they have been offered the gift (as described) and have rejected it. In fact I bet you cant find one person not on this forum.
To find such people, one need to look no further than this thread, wherein at least one person already declared their rejection of the gift even in light of the remaining assumption.
Has anyone ever told you they believe they have been offered the gift and have chosen to reject it? Or do you believe such people exist based on other observations?
19 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIts quite obvious after ten pages that you cannot explain what this 'gift' is and what "given" is, despite many posters asking you to do so. They are not saying you are wrong, just asking for an explanation. It is you that is obfuscating and dancing around the point.
You continue insisting on arguing the given, instead of answering the question. Forget the given, since it is not in view.
I'm sure you are intelligent enough to realize that posters here are not going to take something on faith when they dont know what you are on about.
19 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadWithin the first ten posts, you have one person who honestly answered the question, fully aware of the situation, accepting the given while rejecting the gift.
I bet you cant find one person on this forum who believes they have been offered the gift (as described) and have rejected it. In fact I bet you cant find one person not on this forum.
Has anyone ever told you they believe they have been offered the gift and have chosen to reject it? Or do you believe such people exist based on other observations?
19 May 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelI'm guessing that you have either failed to read any of the posts carefully (not that they are superfluous or anything short of economical and precise) or you are simply refusing to consider them for what they say, sans any projection of your prejudices.
Its quite obvious after ten pages that you cannot explain what this 'gift' is and what "given" is, despite many posters asking you to do so. They are not saying you are wrong, just asking for an explanation. It is you that is obfuscating and dancing around the point.
I'm sure you are intelligent enough to realize that posters here are not going to take something on faith when they dont know what you are on about.
The given has been explained repeatedly: assuming that the soul lives forever and each individual determines their eternal state by virtue of their decision relative to acceptance or rejection of...
The gift: something given freely by God bestowing upon the recipient what otherwise cannot be achieved by the work or efforts of the same.
In light of that scenario, why would a person reject that gift?
19 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSame reason today as with Pharaoh Amenhotep III for the duration of the ten plagues in Ancient Egypt... "Deliver us from this one and I'll buy in". Guy's cerebral dendrites were so grooved by decades of negative volition, locked in arrogance, rejection scar tissue that he succeeded in coding his will to become incapable of saying 'yes', even though God's grace kept him alive.
I'm guessing that you have either failed to read any of the posts carefully (not that they are superfluous or anything short of economical and precise) or you are simply refusing to consider them for what they say, sans any projection of your prejudices.
The given has been explained repeatedly: assuming that the soul lives forever and each individual det ...[text shortened]... k or efforts of the same.
In light of that scenario, why would a person reject that gift?
20 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadAre you truly that dense, or just feigning the same. Within the first nine posts. It doesn't get much clearer than that, does it? Simply read the first nine posts and see if you can figure out who the person is--- as if it even mattered.
And which poster was that? Why so vague? Why do you never like to admit that you were mistaken?
Now, get back on the subject, if you can.
20 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI did read the first nine posts and not one of them matches the OP. Hence your vagueness and refusal to pinpoint the poster in question. You are mistaken. Just admit it.
Are you truly that dense, or just feigning the same. Within the first nine posts. It doesn't get much clearer than that, does it? Simply read the first nine posts and see if you can figure out who the person is--- as if it even mattered.
Now proceed to try to find an actual match and you may find you are mistaken about their existence altogether.
Now, get back on the subject, if you can.
This is the subject: There is no point discussing a hypothetical when the answer relies on the concrete.
One may ask why the hypothetical man jumped over the hypothetical cliff, but one can never answer beyond best guess - which is what I have already done. What more can be said?
20 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou are not what you think; your mind conducts your thought. Your mind cannot get silent, so this endless string of thoughts gives you the false impression that your mind is yourself and thus you end up trapped in your "I-me" loop;
Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
When there is silence there is not mind. There is not mind -there is just thought. Your thoughts are brought up by your mind so fast one after the other ad infinitum that you cannot notice the interval between each thought of your mind. Yet there is always an interval. You are these intervals.
But once more you are preaching by means of your "given", once more you are dreaming that you have "soul" as it is defined by your religious beliefs. It is my knowledge that when you are dreaming you remain just the same person you were when you are sleeping not, and whatever you do and you feel when you are sleeping are all parts of yourself; so that body of yours when you are sleeping is your real body, and that mind of yours when you are sleeping is your real mind. So how is it my task to clarify for yourself that you are just dreaming of that "soul" with your eyes wide open? You should be able to destroy your own delusions.
You are dreaming of that "soul" with your brain focused on Logos because your mind is shapeless and its forms and its preconceptions are uncountable. Your "given" is a "given" solely to you and to your fellow religious persons of your denomination; once more your brain hi-jacked yourself😵
20 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI see. So when this was posted by Starrman:
I did read the first nine posts and not one of them matches the OP. Hence your vagueness and refusal to pinpoint the poster in question. You are mistaken. Just admit it.
Now proceed to try to find an actual match and you may find you are mistaken about their existence altogether.
[b]Now, get back on the subject, if you can.
This is the sub ...[text shortened]... e can never answer beyond best guess - which is what I have already done. What more can be said?[/b]
Even if it were a given, I'd protest. If god came down, revealed himself to me and offered me eternal life, I'd say 'No thanks, I don't take blood money, subterfuge and threats kindly.
he didn't really mean it?
The fact of the matter is, you have answered the question: that man who makes such a decision is either insane or has a death wish. Agreed.
20 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo, in addition to thinking it okay to use the terms 'believer' and 'unbeliever' in ways that actually have nothing whatsoever to do with belief (not to mention the misguided use of 'gift'😉, you also apparently cannot count.
I see. So when this was posted by Starrman:
Even if it were a given, I'd protest. If god came down, revealed himself to me and offered me eternal life, I'd say 'No thanks, I don't take blood money, subterfuge and threats kindly.
he didn't really mean it?
The fact of the matter is, you have answered the question: that man who makes such a decision is either insane or has a death wish. Agreed.
You are a tragic figure.
20 May 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloMust say this thread has been an eye opener. I have come to realise that he's getting some kind of zealot's woody from luring people into a 'discussion' where they have to agree to assume that both believers and unbelievers believe, but the unbelievers are in denial. It really is as shallow as that. twhitehead was too charitable earlier. Bosse got it right: "Ten pages and counting of Freaky not taking 'your OP is stupid' for an answer".
You are a tragic figure.
21 May 10
Originally posted by black beetleThank you all for presence of being in this discussion. Here is something from personal readings today. I love how synchronicity happens...
You are not what you think; your mind conducts your thought. Your mind cannot get silent, so this endless string of thoughts gives you the false impression that your mind is yourself and thus you end up trapped in your "I-me" loop;
When there is silence there is not mind. There is not mind -there is just thought. Your thoughts are brought up by your ...[text shortened]... religious persons of your denomination; once more your brain hi-jacked yourself😵
A tenth of an inch's difference,
And heaven and earth are set apart;
If you wish to see it before your own eyes,
Have no fixed thoughts either for or against it.
2. To set up what you like against what you dislike--
This is the disease of the mind:
When the deep meaning [of the Way] is not understood
Peace of mind is disturbed to no purpose.
3. [The Way is] perfect like unto vast space,
With nothing wanting, nothing superfluous:
It is indeed due to making choice
That its suchness is lost sight of.
4. Pursue not the outer entanglements,
Dwell not in the inner void;
Be serene in the oneness of things,
And [dualism] vanishes by itself.
5. When you strive to gain quiescence by stopping motion,
The quiescence thus gained is ever in motion;
As long as you tarry in the dualism,
How can you realize oneness?
6. And when oneness is not thoroughly understood,
In two ways loss is sustained:
The denying of reality is the asserting of it,
And the asserting of emptiness is the denying of it.[1]
...
"One Reality only--
How deep and far-reaching!
The ten thousand things--
How confusingly multifarious!
The true and the conventional are indeed intermingling,
But essentially of the same substance they are.
The wise and the unenlightened are indeed distinguishable,
But in the Way they are united as one.
Desirest thou to find its limits?
How broadly expanding! It is limitless!
How vaguely it vanishes away! Its ends are never reached!
It originates in beginningless time, it terminates in endless time."]
~~ON BELIEVING IN MIND (SHINJIN-NO-MEI)
MANUAL OF ZEN BUDDHISM
DAISETZ TEITARO SUZUKI, D.LITT.
[1934]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/mzb/