Fine-tuning of the Universe for life

Originally posted by twhitehead
We have gone over this before, yet you seem to suffer from amnesia.

So let me explain it again:
The universe is, in fact, peculiarly indeed exquisitely calibrated for my current existence. Think about all the prerequisites for my birth for example. If my parents hadn't bought a computer, I wouldn't be a programmer (and thus not who I am today). If my ...[text shortened]... rse is SUPREMELY EXTRAORDINARILY and UNIQUELY fine tuned for my existence EXACTLY as I am today.

I still can't believe you are really a computer programmar because you use such poor logic and reason on this subject. Perhaps, some other influence is effecting your thought process on this particular topic.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You don't have to agree with me, but you seem to have forgotten - or ignored - the explanations.

[b]They boiled down to this "Give me any reason for believing in God and I will offer at least a somewhat plausible alternative explanation."
No, they did not. Is that what you got from my explanation in this thread? Where did I mention God?

Th ...[text shortened]... and he even wanted me to make this post to you showing you the ridiculousness of your argument.

It seems clear that you did not watch the video.

Originally posted by sonship
It appears to be a rationale - that the universe is fine tuned to argue for atheism. Very clever. First rule of Atheism - Always be very clever.

No. Once again, you are reading what isn't there. First rule of sonship - imagine that the atheists are mind bogglingly clever and try to stay one step ahead of them. Read what I write and respond to that and not to your preconceived notions of atheists.

I think you think any price is worth the effort to deny the existence of God.
Once again, you are imagining what I think, and getting it totally wrong. I have said nothing whatsoever about the existence of God. Thats all in your own mind, not mine. All I am saying is that your argument is flawed. Admitting it is flawed is not equivalent to denying the existence of God as you seem to believe. Its simply admitting that it is flawed.

I honestly do not share that sentiment. At some point the "sport" of cleverly arising at alternative explanations is not worth it to me.
I have also said nothing about alternative explanations. I am trying to explain to you a basic fact of reality: every single event that ever takes place has precedents and the probability of every event happening is so mind boggling small that in comparison your earlier figure of 60 trillion contingent events is as nothing. This has nothing to do with God, free will, being clever, sport or anything else you are reading in to it. It is a simple fact of reality. I think you would do well to take the time to understand it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
There actually is some evidence of other universes. The CBR shows hints of our universe, when it was much younger, may have had a bump from an external universe like two soap bubbles colliding and bouncing off.

They see definite signs of this in the background radiation:

http://www.livescience.com/15530-multiverse-universe-eternal-inflation-test.html ...[text shortened]... rk matter and so forth. It gives fundamental information about our universe and how it got here.

This sounds more like a cult religion to me.

Originally posted by sonship
I am going to try to avoid excessive linking to other sites in this thread.

It seems they are not open to consider them anyway. It's a shame.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It seems clear that you did not watch the video.

You are correct. I have no interest in videos you link to, and do not watch them nor am I addressing any of my arguments to you because I fear you lack the capacity to understand them. Sonship on the other hand is more than capable of understanding them if he would only stop being so defensive and actually listen instead of trying to counter mind bogglingly clever moves that I have no intention of making.

Originally posted by sonship
Other universes is theoretical. No evidence of any other universes exists.
We really do not know if any other universes exist.

The one we know about is peculiarly indeed exquisitely calibrated to allow life to exist. The calibration is beyond, I said BEYOND extraordinary.

And I don't think the term Anthropic Principle was coined by Christians.

Is the universe fine tuned for life, or is life fine tuned for the universe?

Of course, in most places we look, neither is fine tuned for the other.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
So what if a trillion things had to happen for us to arrive?? That only matters if we were the goal. Suppose in the far future we have the ability to study from afar a region of space where a giant gascloud exists. We know that stars and planets will be formed in that gascloud. Suppose we study that particular region for billions of years - and by stu ...[text shortened]... ngless.

We were never the goal to begin with and we are not special. Why don't you get that??

To suppose this and that does not solve the problem of why the universe in fine-tuned for life.

Originally posted by Great King Rat

We were never the goal to begin with and we are not special. Why don't you get that??

If I imagine that some rock on the dark side of the moon was the goal rather than human beings, it still doesn't help.

Why can't you get that hardly any amount of humility erases the fact that there is nothing else quite like a human being anywhere else we know. At least not yet so.

I like Sci Fi as much as the next guy, alien planet life forms and all that good imaginary stuff. But realism has it that "We're IT" in terms of unique beings in existence.

We have to be humble yet also realistic. We are indeed connected to all the other living forms we know of . There is no doubt about that. But at the same time we are unique over them.

We are in some sense "higher" than the dolphin, the chimp, the tube worm, the termnite colony. No brag, just fact.

So I think we need a realistic balance. We are not SO special that we can discard of every other living thing on the planet. Yet we have to be realistic and recognize that nowhere is there yet anything like a human being.


Now consider for a moment Genesis in the Bible. Forget about young earth and old earth. Just think of the scheme presented. You are given life on a low plane, then you ascend upward until it is time for man to be spoken of.

At that point you have God declare something rather special, and unlike all that was pronounced before - "Let Us create man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26)

When you look at this chapter in its basics you have a realistic assessment of what all humans have intuitively sensed. We are a part of all other living things yet at the same time we are special over all the others.

We can be caught in extreme attitude in either direction. We are not SO unique that we can kill off everything else and expect to do well. Yet the other extreme is to take up false humility that if we don't do well, the cock roach will no doubt carry the torch on for life on the planet.

The atheists tell me that I am also an atheist to many gods. They say that they simply do not believe in one more god than I, the God of the Bible.

Similarly, I say to them that I just believe in one more higher life than man, the God of the Bible.

Originally posted by JS357
Is the universe fine tuned for life, or is life fine tuned for the universe?

Of course, in most places we look, neither is fine tuned for the other.

The fine-tuning argument belongs in the same trash bin as the ex-ante probability argument.

Odds of life arising in the universe:
1 in 10.34e+48 (or whatever crazy number they have invented this time)

Odds that life has arisen in the universe:
1.

Originally posted by RJHinds
To suppose this and that does not solve the problem of why the universe in fine-tuned for life.

The universe is not fine tuned for life. The universe simply "is". And life simply "is".

The reason why you would think otherwise is because you want to consider yourself very special. You're not. In a couple of years you will be dead and the universe will continue to exist as if nothing happened. In a couple of million/billion years humanity will have become extinct or have changed beyond recognition and the universe will continue to exist as if nothing happened.

Trillions and trillions of years from now that "finely tuned universe" will have changed into a "place" where nothing but elementary particles can exist and all life will have been long gone by then. And the universe won't care one bit.

You too, RJHinds, are amazingly insignificant.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
The fine-tuning argument belongs in the same trash bin as the ex-ante probability argument.

Odds of life arising in the universe:
1 in 10.34e+48 (or whatever crazy number they have invented this time)

Odds that life has arisen in the universe:
1.

With the help of the creator God.

Originally posted by JS357
Is the universe fine tuned for life, or is life fine tuned for the universe?

Of course, in most places we look, neither is fine tuned for the other.

Is the universe fine tuned for life, or is life fine tuned for the universe?

Of course, in most places we look, neither is fine tuned for the other.

From what I presently understand, there were mathematical CONSTANTS that had to be in place already at the initial creation of the universe. If these constants were already set then that suggests a calibrating of the universe for life.

It is the same with LAWS which seemed to have been in existence in something like a prior way. If the laws were calibrated in and of themselves it suggests that life was the goal.

It may not be proof. But it is strong evidence of a goal oriented creation.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
The universe is not fine tuned for life. The universe simply "is". And life simply "is".

The reason why you would think otherwise is because you want to consider yourself very special. You're not. In a couple of years you will be dead and the universe will continue to exist as if nothing happened. In a couple of million/billion years humanity will ...[text shortened]... by then. And the universe won't care one bit.

You too, RJHinds, are amazingly insignificant.

I don't consider myself special. God is special and I am just His creation that He has wonderfully made beyond our comprehension. You can't make anything that lives, much less a human being. Only the fool says in his heart that there is no God.

Originally posted by sonship
Yet we have to be realistic and recognize that nowhere is there yet anything like a human being.

Let us for a moment assume that humans are 'the most special thing in the universe'. (not that I think you have a good argument for this).
Firstly, this was not mentioned as far as I am aware in your earlier posts, so was it part of the argument, or not? Was it one of those details you left out?
Secondly, it doesn't actually help the argument. Any universe will presumably have something in it that we can declare 'the most special thing in that universe'. But that special things existence does not therefore imply that that universe was pre-fine tuned for that things existence.
For you to have any hope of an argument, you have to show that we are special amongst all possible universes. You actually don't have to show that we are the most special, only that things as special as us are highly improbable across the spectrum of all possible universes, and also that we are the only such universe in existence or that there are a limited number of such universes (else the improbable becomes probable).