Fine-tuning of the Universe for life

Originally posted by sonship
No evidence of any other universes exists.
We really do not know if any other universes exist.

There is no evidence againstother universes existing.
I believe they do.
You cannot prove they do not.

Originally posted by sonship
Are you a humble average Joe "Great King Rat" or an average strutting around braggart "Great King Rat" ?

I think I know my strong points and my weaknesses. I try to get by and so far I can't complain. There's of course always room for improvement.

Make of it what you like.

Originally posted by sonship

The reason why you would think otherwise is because you want to consider yourself very special.

Hold on here. Why can't the theist say the same to you? You just don't want to consider that there could be a planning intelligent Creator because you want to consider YOURSELF toooo [b]Special.
[/b]

Totally incorrect.

It is the man who says the Universe was
created for him that is assuming Man is special.

We have no reason to believe we are special on
a cosmic scale and no reason to think the
universe was tailored for us.

Originally posted by wolfgang59

Totally incorrect.

It is the man who says the Universe was
created for him that is assuming life, especially intelligent life, is special.

We have no reason to believe we are special on
a cosmic scale and no reason to think the
universe was tailored for us.

Some of us human beings regard humanity is unique in the universe.
Some of us consider this as realism to think so.

Not all who consider so are Christians though. I don't know the backrounds of all of these people. I am only interested in what they said right now.

“On Earth, a long sequence of improbable events transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row. Contrary to the prevailing belief, maybe we are special …. It seems prudent to conclude that we are alone in a vast cosmic ocean, that in one important sense, we ourselves are special in that we go against the Copernican grain.”

Robert Naeye
“OK, Where Are They?”
Astronomy, July 1996, p.36

“The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming.”

Freeman Dyson
Disturbing the Universe
New York: Harper & Row, 1979, p. 250

"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with the physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

Sir Fred Hoyle

“There is no explanation in the Big Bang theory for the seemingly fortuitous fact that the density of matter has just the right value for the evolution of a benign, life supporting universe.”

Robert Jastrow
God and the Astronomers, second edition
New York and London: W.W. Norton & Company, 1992, p. 93

“If you’re religious, it’s like looking at God.”

Milton Rothman
“What Went Before?”
Free Inquiry, vol. 13, no. 1 (Winter, 1992/93), p.12

Context: George Smoot commenting on the discovery by the COBE Science Working Group of the expected “ripples” in the microwave background radiation. He called these fluctuations “the fingerprints from the Maker.” Smoot draws attention not only to the fact that his team had provided more evidence for the creation event, but for a “finely orchestrated” creation event. Stephen Hawking was so impressed with this finding that he called it “the most important discovery of the century, if not of all time.”

Fred Heeren
Show Me God: What the Message from Space Is Telling Us About God
Day Star Publications, 2000, p. 177

"Every one of these forces must have just the right strength if there is to be any possibility of life. For example, if electrical forces were much stronger than they are, then no element heavier than hydrogen could form ... But electrical repulsion cannot be too weak. if it were, protons would combine too easily, and the sun ...(assuming that it had somehow managed to exist up to now) would explode like a thermonuclear bomb."

Richard Morris
The Fate of the Universe
New York: Playboy Press, 1982, p. 153

“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.”

- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry

Originally posted by wolfgang59
There is no evidence againstother universes existing.
I believe they do.
You cannot prove they do not.

We only know about this universe, so to start considereing the existence of imaginary universes is only a distraction away from acknowledging our discoveries of this fine-tuned universe for life as we know it.

Anything else falls under science fiction and pseudoscience.

According to Carl Sagan, the universe (cosmos) "is all that is or ever was or ever will be." However, the idea that the universe is all is not a scientific fact, but an assumption based upon materialistic naturalism. Since Carl Sagan's death in 1996, new discoveries in physics and cosmology bring into questions Sagan's assumption about the universe. Evidence shows that the constants of physics have been finely tuned to a degree not possible through human engineering. Five of the more finely tuned numbers are included in the table below.

Parameter Max. Deviation

N : N n means 1 in N to the power of 10 raised so high

Ratio of Electrons: Protons 1:1037 (ten to the 37th power)
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:1040 (10 to the 40th power)
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:1055 (10 to the 55th power)
Mass Density of Universe1 1:1059 (10 to the 59th power)
Cosmological Constant 1:10120 (10 to the 120th power)

These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037. (p. 115)

Above information from http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Totally incorrect.

It is the man who says the Universe was
created for him that is assuming Man is special.

We have no reason to believe we are special on
a cosmic scale and no reason to think the
universe was tailored for us.

Some of us still see life and man in the universe as special -

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. ..If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural' ) plan." (10)

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word." (3)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." (16)

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique." (25)

From http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

Originally posted by sonship
Not all who consider so are Christians though. I don't know the backrounds of all of these people. I am only interested in what they said right now.

Go ahead and find a million people who consider so, it won't make you any more correct. What you need to find is some form of justification for considering so, until you do so, your claim is unfounded.

Originally posted by sonship
Ratio of Electrons: Protons 1:1037 (ten to the 37th power)
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:1040 (10 to the 40th power)
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:1055 (10 to the 55th power)
Mass Density of Universe1 1:1059 (10 to the 59th power)
Cosmological Constant 1:10120 (10 to the 120th p ...[text shortened]... event the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

Define 'any form of life'. Also explain how the writer was able to determine that 'any form of life' could not have existed with those changes.

I don't know if you are familiar with Conway's Game of Life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life

After some experience with it, it is tempting to think that the rules Conway came up with are special. But I have personally experimented with modifying the rules and found that some variations actually produce much more interesting 'universes' with much more 'life' in them.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Define 'any form of life'. Also explain how the writer was able to determine that 'any form of life' could not have existed with those changes.

I don't know if you are familiar with Conway's Game of Life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life

After some experience with it, it is tempting to think that the rules Conway came up with are ...[text shortened]... ome variations actually produce much more interesting 'universes' with much more 'life' in them.

We have already determined that you have a problem with logic and reason, so why should we believe you over the true scientists? Do you have some support for your ideas from Holy Scripture?

Closer To Truth asks Leonard Susskind: Is the Universe Fine-Tuned for Life and Mind?

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
This sounds more like a cult religion to me.

I think you are fearful of what science learns because it puts you and your ilk further and further into the past where ghosts and devils and fighting gods and jealous gods exist but only in the minds of the fearful.

We know much more about the universe now and will know much more as each decade goes by so your blathering gets less and less traction as each day goes by, you recede further and further into obscurity while the real world looks out at the universe in wonder.

For instance, what would it mean for your concept of god if it was shown there we in fact live in a multiverse? Wouldn't you have to expand your notion of what your god is supposed to be like?

Wouldn't your god now have to be the lord of creation of trillions of universes some way different than ours, some close and some exactly the same?

I bet those kind of thoughts never crossed your brain so buried a thousand years in the past.

Closer To Truth asks Leonard Susskind: Is the Universe Fine-Tuned for Life and Mind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cT4zZIHR3s

The Cosmological Content must be unchangeable to this degree -

.000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000001

That should be 123 zeros and a 1. Am I right ?

I have heard the that fine tuning of this Cosmological Constant if varied to the tinest degree would result in the explansion rate of the universe being different and non-conducive to life.

I have heard that if the scale of variation were represented on a measuring line on which you could move the point to the left or right, the measuring line would have to stretch from one end of the known universe to the other. And then you would have only a billionth of a inch to vary the crucial point.

Who set this point at the appropriate place? Accident ?

Shall we imagine a trillion trillion other universes so as to nullify the sense of uniqueness of this Cosmological Constant ?

You can't run from God by running into a billion universes become just a rock rather than a man.

But if you all insist, there is possibly this other really different universe in the multiverse. It is perhaps number 918,332,702,114. And there all there is are pebbles. If you can get over there you can comfortably be just a pebble and you don't have to worry about life or the uniqueness of being a human being.

Maybe there you can not be concerned about a Maker. Remember, that's universe # 918,332,702,114. Don't make too much noise when you get over there.

Oh, I forgot, there is no air to carry sound waves. Forget about that. You can just be a pebble and be left alone !!

Okay, I'll get serious now. We only know of this universe. Many bubbled universes I think should have bumped into each other, collided, and merged together by now. We really know about one universe. And this one has some peculiarly well calibrated parameters to it. It is hard to destroy the significance of their anthropological significance.

1.) Denying the constants doesn't help this.

2.) Trying to deflate our egos by 1000 fold to be real super humble doesn't help this.

3.) Proposing tons and tons more universes doesn't help it much.

4.) Hitting yourself in the head with a two-by-four and just kind of "looking at it differently" like the fine tuning is just a kind of illusion, doesn't help.

5.) Insisting on the separation of church and state doesn't seem to help.

6.) Complaining that Oden and Thor are really bad and silly doesn't seem to help.

7.) Believing that only a precious few of us out here can think logically doesn't do much to help.

Originally posted by sonship
The Cosmological Content must be unchangeable to this degree -

[b].000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000001

[/b]

What value is the Cosmological Constant?
It was first proposed by Einstein.
Then dropped.
Then proposed again.
Various values have been proposed.
Yet you can say it has to be that accurate?

It could be that future theories ditch it completely ???????