Fine-tuning of the Universe for life

Originally posted by sonship

We were never the goal to begin with and we are not special. Why don't you get that??

If I imagine that some rock on the dark side of the moon was the goal rather than human beings, it still doesn't help.

Why can't you get that hardly any amount of humility erases the fact that there is nothing else quite like a human being anywhere ...[text shortened]... I say to them that I just believe in one more [b]higher life than man, the God of the Bible.[/b]

there is nothing else quite like a human being anywhere else we know.

Yes, that was part of my point.

"We're IT"

We're what, exactly? What do you mean by IT? A childeating demon disguised as a clown?

We are in some sense "higher" than the dolphin, the chimp, the tube worm, the termnite colony. No brag, just fact.

You're being vague. What do you mean with "higher"? More intelligent? Then just say "more intelligent". So what if?

Yet the other extreme is to take up false humility that if we don't do well, the cock roach will no doubt carry the torch on for life on the planet.

What, you think cockroaches will die out the moment we disappear?? You do know that many, many lifeforms have existed before use and have even become extinct long before our ancestors ever appeared? Earth was a vibrant, "living" place millions of years before we arrived and it will continue to do so long after we've disappeared.

Similarly, I say to them that I just believe in one more higher life than man, the God of the Bible.

Yes, and I believe I'm a millionaire.

The reason why you would think otherwise is because you want to consider yourself very special.

Hold on here. Why can't the theist say the same to you? You just don't want to consider that there could be a planning intelligent Creator because you want to consider YOURSELF toooo Special.

Is it possible that the concept of a smarter intelligent uncreated and eternal Creator somehow robs YOU of YOUR sense of being special ?

Maybe your specialness feels threatened by the thought of another higher Mind existing prior to you and being responsible for your existence.

Any possibility of that ?

You're not. In a couple of years you will be dead and the universe will continue to exist as if nothing happened. In a couple of million/billion years humanity will have become extinct or have changed beyond recognition and the universe will continue to exist as if nothing happened.

That's right. That's what they say. That is unless there is some other plan from the Creator.

What does Romans chapter 8 verse about 19 through 28 read?
Dust your New Testament off or pull it out of the waste paper basket and tell me what it says there.

Just a little Bible thumping won't hurt you. Tell me Romans 8:19-28 says about creation and the sons of God there.

Trillions and trillions of years from now that "finely tuned universe" will have changed into a "place" where nothing but elementary particles can exist and all life will have been long gone by then. And the universe won't care one bit.

That is completely right UNLESS there is another plan that at least some of us can cooperate with the Creator about.

It was no accident that Jesus, Son of God healed the sick, multiplied the bread, raised the dead, walked upon the water, calmed the storm, rebuked the evil spirits, saw into the distant future, Himself rose.

This acts had significance in demonstrating God's desire that man have image and dominion over His entire creation.

Originally posted by sonship
I like Sci Fi as much as the next guy, alien planet life forms and all that good imaginary stuff. But realism has it that [b] "We're IT" in terms of unique beings in existence.[/b]

I feel compelled to point out that your 'realism' is based solely on your religious beliefs and not your Sci Fi knowledge. The fact is that we have investigated at most 9 planets and some moons for evidence of intelligent life, and some of them we haven't even seen past the cloud cover.
Considering that there are billions of billions of planets (and you can add a few zeros on top of that), we can comfortably say we have not yet investigated 0.000000000000000001% of the planets beyond the most cursory search for high powered lasers pointed right at us from the closest 0.00000000000000001% or so.
So saying "We're IT" is a little premature.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't consider myself special. God is special and I am just His creation that He has wonderfully made beyond our comprehension. You can't make anything that lives, much less a human being. Only the fool says in his heart that there is no God.

I don't consider myself special.

I am... wonderfully made

Ego much?

You can't make anything that lives, much less a human being.

If this were true we would have become extinct long ago. That is, if we had ever come to exist.

Originally posted by sonship

The reason why you would think otherwise is because you want to consider yourself very special.

Hold on here. Why can't the theist say the same to you? You just don't want to consider that there could be a planning intelligent Creator because you want to consider YOURSELF toooo [b]Special.

Is it possible that the concept of ...[text shortened]... ficance in demonstrating God's desire that man have image and dominion over His entire creation.[/b]

Is it possible that the concept of a smarter intelligent uncreated and eternal Creator somehow robs YOU of YOUR sense of being special

Lol, dude, even in this thread on this subforum of this website of this outskirt of the internet there are many people who are more intelligent than I am. I am at best an average Joe.

That's right. That's what they say. That is unless there is some other plan from the Creator.

Previously you were trying to show that there is a creator because the universe is so finely tuned. Now you are suggesting that the universe might turn out to be finely tuned because there is a creator. Circles make me dizzy.

What does Romans chapter 8 verse about 19 through 28 read?

Is it "It was the best of times it was the worst of times"?

That is completely right UNLESS there is another plan that at least some of us can cooperate with the Creator about.

Circles, circles, circles.

It was no accident that Jesus...

No, no accident. Just fictitious.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
[b]I don't consider myself special.

I am... wonderfully made

Ego much?

You can't make anything that lives, much less a human being.

If this were true we would have become extinct long ago. That is, if we had ever come to exist.[/b]

A moron needs an Instructor.

We humans have been programmed by the creator God to be able to reproduce after our kind. However, we have never made anything from scratch that can live like the creator God did.

From The Moron Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
A moron needs an Instructor.

We humans have been programmed by the creator God to be able to reproduce after our kind. However, we have never made anything from scratch that can live like the creator God did.

From The Moron Instructor

You used the fact that we can't create anything that lives as some kind of proof that God exists. Now you use the fact that we reproduce as proof that God exists.

Circles everywhere!!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Fine-tuning of the Universe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDMpWcf4ee0

The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Life Just Got Finer

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/the_fine-tuning_1070091.html

Hey, have you also noticed how the water in the oceans is exactly the same size and shape as the gap it fills? Wow man. God musta dunnit.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
You used the fact that we can't create anything that lives as some kind of proof that God exists. Now you use the fact that we reproduce as proof that God exists.

Circles everywhere!!

This is only proof that some morons are beyond instructing.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Hey, have you also noticed how the water in the oceans is exactly the same size and shape as the gap it fills? Wow man. God musta dunnit.

Yep.

Originally posted by RJHinds
This is only proof that some morons are beyond instructing.

Could you please stop being so witty and clever? You're making me very insecure.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Could you please stop being so witty and clever? You're making me very insecure.

Oops! Sorry about that.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Oops! Sorry about that.

It's ok, most geniuses don't know just how smart they are and how silly they can make the rest of us feel. You can't help it.

Originally posted by Great King Rat

[b]Is it possible that the concept of a smarter intelligent uncreated and eternal Creator somehow robs YOU of YOUR sense of being special

Lol, dude, even in this thread on this subforum of this website of this outskirt of the internet there are many people who are more intelligent than I am. I am at best an average Joe.

I know you are humble. But I still ask the question to a generic Humanistic "You."

I'll assume you are saying No. Okay.
You are perhaps not a "Man is the measure of all things" Humanist atheist feeling a Divine Being diminishes your collective sense of human specialness.

Okay. You're too much a average Joe for that. Fine.

That's right. That's what they say. That is unless there is some other plan from the Creator.

Previously you were trying to show that there is a creator because the universe is so finely tuned. Now you are suggesting that the universe might turn out to be finely tuned because there is a creator. Circles make me dizzy.

What circles ?

1.) I mentioned the fine tuning of laws and constants by which life was permitted to arise in the universe. And this suggests purposeful calibration.

2.) I agreed that if no intervention the whole matter will run down to a cold, dark, dead blackness of ashes given enough huge amount of time.

I see no contradiction here.

I did request that you remind me what Paul's letter to the Romans says in 8:19-28. Apparently that simply flew by you as not worth even a casual Internet look up.

Well, it is possible to TUNE a violin and leave it. Eventually it will turn into dust.

A well designed automobile, given enough time, will turn into rust and dust.

And a well calibrated creation, given no intervention, could also burn out. And that is exactly what scientists expect will happen given enough beillions or more years into the future.

Romans 8:19-28 which you prefer to ignore, concerns the special place man has in his place to cooperate with God as "sons of God" to liberate the creation from the vanity of ultimate decay and collapse.

I see no contradiction. I see no circles.
I do see a tiny little post on a subject which deserves a lot more explanation.

And I see confirmation that the central being of all the universe - humanity, plays a special part in the wealth and health of the whole of God's creation.

There is natural tuning and there is spiritual and moral tuning also.
We take part in the latter - to attune our hearts to His eternal purpose.

What does Romans chapter 8 verse about 19 through 28 read?

Is it "It was the best of times it was the worst of times"?

No not at all. That is Charles Dickens, average joe.

That is completely right UNLESS there is another plan that at least some of us can cooperate with the Creator about.

Circles, circles, circles.

It was no accident that Jesus...

No accident silly willy.

The universe is special.
Within the universe life is special.
Within life human kind is special.
Within human kind - a certain man in history is special - Jesus Christ.

What He said and did was relevant to the overcoming of death, of chaos moral and otherwise.

Now I know that this going beyond science but it is not going beyond finding the truth about things. I thought you were interested in that.

No, no accident. Just fictitious.

The fine tuning is not fictitious and history's Christ is not fictitious.
Both are rather unusual though.

If you really want to understand the universe and man and life within it you have to carefully examine Jesus.

Anyway a rather "above average Joe" intellectually and scientifically, Sir Isaac Newton wrote about fine tuning here:

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."

[Sir Isaac Newton, The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Book III, Andrew Motte, translator. (London: H.D. Symonds 1803), pp. 310-314 <www.thenagain.info/Classes/Sources/Newton.html>.]

Originally posted by Great King Rat

Lol, dude, even in this thread on this subforum of this website of this outskirt of the internet there are many people who are more intelligent than I am. I am at best an average Joe.

Are you a humble average Joe "Great King Rat" or an average strutting around braggart "Great King Rat" ?