Originally posted by galveston75Let's look at the dog genus, ie. Canids. Wolves, dogs, dingoes, coyotes and golden jackals can all interbreed. They have the same number of chromosomes, 78 to be exact.
I agree. I really don't know what he's asking as it's clear that all animals mate according to it's "kind". It's not a mystery as we all see animals breed everyday and have offspring. It's as normal of a thing as it gets.
So a "kind' is a simple thing to understand I would think.
Side-striped jackals and black-backed jackals cannot interbreed with the above, they have 74 chromosomes. How can a wolf breed with a golden jackal, yet a side-striped and black-striped jackal can't? If every animal could only breed according to it's 'kind', you'd think the jackals would be able to breed, yet they can't?
Red Foxes, Bat-eared foxes, Fennec foxes and Gray foxes cannot interbreed, yet they're all foxes and surely the same 'kind'?
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Originally posted by Proper KnobWell like I said God created them and made likenesses and varities in all life. He made the laws of nature. Either we accept that or not.
Let's look at the dog genus, ie. Canids. Wolves, dogs, dingoes, coyotes and golden jackals can all interbreed. They have the same number of chromosomes, 78 to be exact.
Side-striped jackals and black-backed jackals cannot interbreed with the above, they have 74 chromosomes. How can a wolf breed with a golden jackal, yet a side-striped and black-strip es and Gray foxes cannot interbreed, yet they're all foxes and surely the same 'kind'?
Sure man can try to play around and come up with specialized looks or traits but has yet to make a "kind' of it's own. And usually the things man decides to play with always has a catch to it.
Buffalo is the perfect example as now there is hardly any pure blooded buffalo left as cattle traits have filterd into almost all the gene pool. And now such things as cancer that buffalo were immuned to is now an issue with them.
Man should leave things alone and respect the laws of God. Leave the "kinds" alone.
Originally posted by RJHindsMy question was very clear, and you refused to answer it. I think you therefore know perfectly well what I was getting at, you just cant admit it.
The Holy Bible will not be proven wrong; but you
could prove me wrong if I am saying something
contrary to the Holy Bible. However, at this point
I do not know what that would be, since you are
unclear as to what you are trying to prove is wrong.
Originally posted by galveston75My confusion has nothing to do with belief. There is no belief involved here.
But I can understand your confusion if you don't believe that God did and can create say a basic cat.
The question is simple and straight forward: how do you define 'kind'?
But a "kind" would be in the case of cats, the "feline kind".
How do you know whether Lions and house cats are part of a single 'kind' or two separate 'kinds'?
How do you know whether dogs and cats are different 'kinds' or the same 'kind'?
But in that "kind" there are natural restrictions when it comes to breeding. And this is where this article is explaining that it has never been challenged in the sense that man cannot challenge God's natural laws and do things differently that are a succes or make a new "kind.".
And that is what I call a stupid claim. If you define a 'kind' as that which cannot interbreed, then of course nobody can ever 'challenge' that since once we get them to interbreed you will simply say 'therefore they are of the same kind'. We could proceed ad infinitum until we discovered that all animals were the same 'kind' and we still wouldn't have 'challenged' your definition or your claim. It would be stupid to try and its stupid to ask someone to try.
Originally posted by galveston75So are Buffalo and Cattle of the same kind? If they are, you are not making any sense. If they aren't, you are equally not making any sense. But at least tell us which it is and we might be able to work out what you are trying to convey!
Man should leave things alone and respect the laws of God. Leave the "kinds" alone.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell to answer all three of you post, I have explained it to you as you're obviously not getting it. I'm not being rude or smart to you in any post so I ask why are you doing that to me?. If you want to continue having a decent conversation on this, fine. But lay off the rudeness.
So are Buffalo and Cattle of the same kind? If they are, you are not making any sense. If they aren't, you are equally not making any sense. But at least tell us which it is and we might be able to work out what you are trying to convey!
And maybe the cats are all of the same "kind" because they all look basically alike?
And maybe God has the major "kinds" in sub groups or whatever or however you'd like to think of it. I don't know but I'm very happy with the Bible's explination of it because it's something we see proof of everyday with all life before our eyes................ All reproduce according to it's KIND and do not succesfully mate with other KINDS if they even try too.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou can find out this way. Put one of the cattle, say a Hereford or
So are Buffalo and Cattle of the same kind? If they are, you are not making any sense. If they aren't, you are equally not making any sense. But at least tell us which it is and we might be able to work out what you are trying to convey!
whatever type you can, with a type of buffalo of opposite sex and
see if they mate and produce an offspring calf or two. If they are
able to do this then you are halfway to proving they are the same
kind. Then when the calves reach maturity and breed to produce
offspring calves, you have proven they are of the same kind. I
have never done this are heard of it being done so I am unable
to answer you question directly and know I am telling you the
truth. So, I must leave it up to you, are someone else that is
interested, to do the experiment. Once you have done this then
you can tell me if they are the same kind or not.
Originally posted by RJHindsThat should work...Lol.
You can find out this way. Put one of the cattle, say a Hereford or
whatever type you can, with a type of buffalo of opposite sex and
see if they mate and produce an offspring calf or two. If they are
able to do this then you are halfway to proving they are the same
kind. Then when the calves reach maturity and breed to produce
offspring calves, you ...[text shortened]... the experiment. Once you have done this then
you can tell me if they are the same kind or not.
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This in one where a good lesson in genetics would help 😉
It would seem that a "Kind" Would be like Canines are Canines. Felines are felines but apparently with in a so called "Kind" some of these still can't reproduce. Like what about a Great Dane and a toy poodle could that work? Like say if the Great Dane was the male and the toy poodle was the female? LOL The hybrids are sterile. The Mule however is a strong animal. How about the Liger ? It seems to that when man screws around something goes wrong but in nature it seems to just work.
Manny
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75I had considered saying that you were 'talking nonsense', but I thought that would be rude, and changed it to 'not making any sense'. I was not trying to be rude, I was trying to express the point that you were simultaneously talking as if Buffalos and Cattle are a single kind, and as if they are separate kinds.
But lay off the rudeness.
My interpretation of your post was:
1. Animals that can interbreed are the same kind eg Buffalo and Cattle.
2. We should not interbreed Buffalo and Cattle because God made them separate kinds.
And maybe the cats are all of the same "kind" because they all look basically alike?
What I am asking is whether you know they are the same 'kind' or whether you made it up because you feel they look basically alike. Should we use the same criteria for other things? eg whales and sharks look basically alike, are they therefore the same 'kind'?
I don't know but I'm very happy with the Bible's explination of it because it's something we see proof of everyday with all life before our eyes................ All reproduce according to it's KIND and do not succesfully mate with other KINDS if they even try too.
But how can you know this when you don't know what is a kind and what isn't? You are claiming to be observing something happening every day according to a category that you cant define. When you have tried to define it, you have defined it as being 'that which I observe'. Somehow you take this circular reasoning to be confirmation of the Bible.
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Originally posted by menace71I think an absolute answer may not exist as to what a "kind" specifically is but we have a good idea. As RJ said if ones in the same family can mate and have offspring ( both sexes ) that also can mate and reproduce then that is the explination of a "kind".
This in one where a good lesson in genetics would help 😉
It would seem that a "Kind" Would be like Canines are Canines. Felines are felines but apparently with in a so called "Kind" some of these still can't reproduce. Like what about a Great Dane and a toy poodle could that work? Like say if the Great Dane was the male and the toy poodle was the fem ...[text shortened]... rews around something goes wrong but in nature it seems to just work.
Manny
Manny
But there are factors that we may not know unless your a geniticist and know more in depth of what qualifies where certian animals can and can't reproduce with no problems.
I certianly don't know how all that works and I know Twhitehead wants me to answer but I can't in the way he wants. I just don't know.
But it's clear from all life we see that there are boundres and stops that keeps all animal species in check and keeps the individual species destinct and strong.
God designed all life that way to keep all life distinct and not just one big mess of life that goes crazy with breeding outcomes of who knows what...
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou are the one that does not seem to know what a "kind" is,
I had considered saying that you were 'talking nonsense', but I thought that would be rude, and changed it to 'not making any sense'. I was not trying to be rude, I was trying to express the point that you were simultaneously talking as if Buffalos and Cattle are a single kind, and as if they are separate kinds.
My interpretation of your post was:
1. An ...[text shortened]... e'. Somehow you take this circular reasoning to be confirmation of the Bible.
even though it has been explained to you over and over. I
even gave you a way to find out if one animal is the same kind
as another animal and you still can't understand it. We have
tried our best to explain it as simple as we can and we still
can get it in your twhithead. Maybe one day, when you grow
up, you will get it. As for now, we don't know what else to tell you.
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Originally posted by galveston75Sure man can try to play around and come up with specialized looks or traits but has yet to make a "kind' of it's own.
Well like I said God created them and made likenesses and varities in all life. He made the laws of nature. Either we accept that or not.
Sure man can try to play around and come up with specialized looks or traits but has yet to make a "kind' of it's own. And usually the things man decides to play with always has a catch to it.
Buffalo is the perfec ...[text shortened]... them.
Man should leave things alone and respect the laws of God. Leave the "kinds" alone.
Well of course we haven't. Considering that speciation takes hundreds of thousands of years and we have only known about genetics for a hundred years or so, how on earth is that possible?
Originally posted by Proper KnobIt's only possible with God.
[b]Sure man can try to play around and come up with specialized looks or traits but has yet to make a "kind' of it's own.
Well of course we haven't. Considering that speciation takes hundreds of thousands of years and we have only known about genetics for a hundred years or so, how on earth is that possible?[/b]
Originally posted by Proper KnobWell I can't see that ever happening as I know mans ability to go there is probably pretty low. But just saying they somehow made some unbelieveable discovery and figured out how to pull that off, I'd sure not want to be in the same room with whatever starts to move when they hook up the power cables to jump start that thing.
[b]Sure man can try to play around and come up with specialized looks or traits but has yet to make a "kind' of it's own.
Well of course we haven't. Considering that speciation takes hundreds of thousands of years and we have only known about genetics for a hundred years or so, how on earth is that possible?[/b]