Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
@fmf saidHonestly not sure what you're talking about or asking, but here's a verse that just popped into my head, so to speak.
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
I hope that helps.
@fmf saidI have no idea whom you are speaking to, or about.
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
I'm perfectly okay with 'following Christ' being a 'means to an end'.
@fmf saidI don't think most Christians care if anyone sees their faith as a "means to an end" IMHO There is a vast difference between doing something because you want to and doing it because you have to. I follow the teachings of Jesus to the best of my ability because I want to. Gods law was not given to us to unduly restrict us, but rather to keep us from destroying ourselves and each other. As far as your obsession with hell and eternal torture goes, I'll remind you what I said before: Everything that could be done to keep you out of hell has already been done, Jesus paid the ultimate price for you on the cross, all he asks is for you is to believe, if you won't even do that, you're setting yourself up to be a loser - It's up to you.
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
@fmf saidWe feed and take care of our children because we love them, not because we
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
would go to jail if we didn't because it would be called child abuse. There is a
difference between loving someone by seeing that they are okay, doing what
needs to be done for them, not because we get anything out of it. Simply
doing something to get something because we want something or want to
avoid something has more to do with just us than anything else.
If you ask for God's forgiveness to avoid hell, that is a means to an end you
are simply asking for a means for the end you want to avoid; the same would be
true if you were only trying to get to heaven, a means for an end. But to know
God, to experience His love, grace, and mercy having Him in our lives even if it
starts off for selfish reasons connecting to Him alters us to be more like Him
where He gives in the face of opposition, loving His enemies, even if He gets
nothing out of it, He laid down His life for those whom He loves because of His
love, is not a means to an end.
@mchill saidWhoosh
I don't think most Christians care if anyone sees their faith as a "means to an end" IMHO There is a vast difference between doing something because you want to and doing it because you have to. I follow the teachings of Jesus to the best of my ability because I want to. Gods law was not given to us to unduly restrict us, but rather to keep us from destroying ourselves and eac ...[text shortened]... is to believe, if you won't even do that, you're setting yourself up to be a loser - It's up to you.
@kellyjay saidI'm not sure what question you are answering.
We feed and take care of our children because we love them, not because we
would go to jail if we didn't because it would be called child abuse. There is a
difference between loving someone by seeing that they are okay, doing what
needs to be done for them, not because we get anything out of it. Simply
doing something to get something because we want something or want to ...[text shortened]... of it, He laid down His life for those whom He loves because of His
love, is not a means to an end.
I'll ask again, in a slightly simpler way.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if there was no eternal life?
@fmf saidWithout Jesus in our lives, we are no different; we are simply running around no
I'm not sure what question you are answering.
I'll ask again, in a slightly simpler way.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if there was no eternal life?
different than we ever were, except maybe we have more rules and laws to follow.
We cannot know up from down without a fixed position to look at, and it takes the
Spirit of God to show us, God, we cannot by ourselves learn enough to understand
Him, follow enough rules to make Him clear; it is a personal experience we were
made for! When God created heaven and earth and got to us, it is His life in
us we lost when we sinned.
His life in us is us connecting to the Vine who is Christ drawing His life into us,
it is the answer to Jesus' prayer that the Father loves us as He does the very
Son of God that in us changes us. The things He asks of us after that are not
so we get out Him a get out of jail free card; it is that we know Him, love Him
and those around us because that is what love does.
@kellyjay said[1] You either just don't get the question or [2] you are being evasive.
Without Jesus in our lives, we are no different; we are simply running around no
different than we ever were, except maybe we have more rules and laws to follow.
We cannot know up from down without a fixed position to look at, and it takes the
Spirit of God to show us, God, we cannot by ourselves learn enough to understand
Him, follow enough rules to make Him clear; it i ...[text shortened]... ail free card; it is that we know Him, love Him
and those around us because that is what love does.