@medullah saidI don't find this persuasive. I think people who feel impotent and despairing in the face of "the scale of the evil that is resident in this world" are much more likely to take solace from the hope of escaping from it and going to "heaven", forever, than the solace they'd maybe derive from thinking that the evil is going to be stopped at some indeterminate point in the future after they are stone dead.
If you appreciate the scale of the evil that is resident in this world, and the promise that God holds out to end it and remove the violence; hate; and sheer greed that entices one man to want to dominate another. If you could see that happening you could still love God without the promise of life.
@FMF
I'm not inerested in heaven. (Pslams 37:11 "The meek will inherit the earth"😉
You are living in the book of Revelation Chapter 13, with the first version of The Mark of The Beast likely to be issued some time in January (13:16). That's one of many markers that tells me that this whole thing is about to go down.
The OP wasn't "persuade me", it was a personal reflection asking if an individual could love God if there was no payoff in the form eternal life? Or did I get that wrong?
But thanks for acknowledging my contribution anyway, nice discussion point. It's so much more refreshing to get that then some of the stuff that gets posted.
@medullah saidMine are personal reflections too. Something "not being persuasive" is just a figure of speech. Your hope that there is a God who will tackle evil and you love Him for it is understandable. But it seemed to me that your personal reflection was missing the "Jesus" factor, which is your prerogative, of course.
The OP wasn't "persuade me", it was a personal reflection asking if an individual could love God if there was no payoff in the form eternal life? Or did I get that wrong?
-Removed-There are many warnings in scripture about falling away and being rejected; you
can ignore them if you like, you ignore several others, or put your spin on them
to make them mean what you want instead of what they clearly say. We are to
work out our salvation with fear and trembling; it is of eternal consequence how
we live our lives and what we put our faith in if we put our faith in ourselves in
our righteousness instead of Christ's gift, we will stand in our righteousness
before God, not Christ's, if our faith is in our works, our works will fall short.
Jesus must be both our means and our end; if we trust in anything short of that
we miss God by not putting our faith in God; we place it in something far less
then, and more times than not, its all of our own making, as if we believe God is
required to take that from a sinner as good enough.
Matthew 18:34-35
English Standard Version
And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
@fmf saidA fair point, although I was giving you the abridged version.
Mine are personal reflections too. Something "not being persuasive" is just a figure of speech. Your hope that there is a God who will tackle evil and you love Him for it is understandable. But it seemed to me that your personal reflection was missing the "Jesus" factor, which is your prerogative, of course.
It is Jesus that has been appointed judge mankind (Acts 10:42) and ultimately sort everything out then hand it back to his Father, so you were right to pull me up on that out of propriety.
When is he going to do it? That takes me back to my earlier comments; he's already started.
Many Christians are expecting him to turn up (second coming) but this is a mistranlation of the word "parousia" which means "presence" but is incorreclty rendered in many bibiles as "coming". So you would know of Jesus (I prefer Yeshua if I'm honest) presence when it all started kicking off.
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@medullah saidIn many circles, the 2nd coming is a big deal before the Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation,
A fair point, although I was giving you the abridged version.
It is Jesus that has been appointed judge mankind (Acts 10:42) and ultimately sort everything out then hand it back to his Father, so you were right to pull me up on that out of propriety.
When is he going to do it? That takes me back to my earlier comments; he's already started.
Many Christians are expe ...[text shortened]... So you would know of Jesus (I prefer Yeshua if I'm honest) presence when it all started kicking off.
Post-Tribulation; the Pre-Tribulation group focuses on avoiding all the pain and
suffering about to hit the world. I think it doesn't matter if I died in a car accident,
or dropped dead from a heart attack, if I wasn't ready to meet Jesus face to face
today, why should it matter when the Tribulation occurs?
@medullah saidWhat about his statement here from the angels
A fair point, although I was giving you the abridged version.
It is Jesus that has been appointed judge mankind (Acts 10:42) and ultimately sort everything out then hand it back to his Father, so you were right to pull me up on that out of propriety.
When is he going to do it? That takes me back to my earlier comments; he's already started.
Many Christians are expe ...[text shortened]... So you would know of Jesus (I prefer Yeshua if I'm honest) presence when it all started kicking off.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:10-11 KJV)
What is the right interpretation here ?
@fmf saidThe original, bolded text is brilliant because it acknowledges that all of the virtues which we develop also come from God.
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.
If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?
We see this in some Bible passages as well:
1 Peter 4:10
Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. (NIV)
and
Romans 12:6Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them...
All that we have comes from God, and it is through repentance that we are actually morally transformed and renewed. Christianity involves the process of dying to the world and being something new, like in
Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
So, all of the good things that we have are by the grace of God, whether they are things that we are born with or things that are achieved through our spirituality... Those things achieved spiritually are still gifts from Christ.
Which is why humility is integral to Christianity.
@philokalia saidGood behaviour by a Christian ~ or their "virtues", as you put it ~ can be based on or driven by Christian ideology or values, just as a Christian can engage in bad behaviour despite their ideology and professed values.
The original, bolded text is brilliant because it acknowledges that all of the virtues which we develop also come from God.
I see no convincing evidence to support the claims that Christians make about themselves that they supposedly undergo some sort of supernatural transformation.
Texts from Peter, Romans, and Galatians are just components of the ideology; they don't constitute evidence of their own veracity.
@fmf saidYeah, I am at peace with the idea that people would not find evidence that Christians become outstanding. Doubly for the case by which people judge Christians by the standards of the world, for the wise will not appear wise by the standards of the foolish, as would occasionally be the case.
Good behaviour by a Christian ~ or their "virtues", as you put it ~ can be based on or driven by Christian ideology or values, just as a Christian can engage in bad behaviour despite their ideology and professed values.
I see no convincing evidence to support the claims that Christians make about themselves that they supposedly undergo some sort of supernatural transformation ...[text shortened]... Galatians are just components of the ideology; they don't constitute evidence of their own veracity.
It is difficult to fully appreciate Christian ethics without being an actual Christian unless one is some other theist who has a lot of overlap.
@philokalia saidI personally do not find it difficult.
It is difficult to fully appreciate Christian ethics without being an actual Christian unless one is some other theist who has a lot of overlap.