Following Jesus: not a means to an end

@kellyjay said
Or the answer is going over your head!

No, that's not the case. I have posed a very specific question and you are ignoring it, making several generic assertions about your faith, and then pretending that you've answered it.

@josephw said
Honestly not sure what you're talking about or asking, but here's a verse that just popped into my head, so to speak.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

I hope that helps.

If you love someone because they loved you first then you are in clear violation of the teachings of Christ. Therefore that verse either has to be interpreted differently or John does not know what he is talking about.

The follower of Christ and the keeper of His commandments show brotherly love to all people regardless of whether they love first or not. But I know you are a church Christian showing love only to those who love you first, and sadly for you, according to Christ there is no reward for people like that.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?(Matthew 5:46 KJV)

@fmf said
No, that's not the case. I have posed a very specific question and you are ignoring it, making several generic assertions about your faith, and then pretending that you've answered it.

I am making very specific foundational statements about my faith which is wrapped up in your question. Our means to an end starts and ends with us wanting something, or to avoid something. So we want what we want and the end is getting what we desire. While Jesus is our desire, He is our means, in Him are all the means and ends are found, hell has nothing to do with it.

A get out hell free card cares but for one thing, Jesus not required, just keep me out of hell.

@kellyjay said
I am making very specific foundational statements about my faith which is wrapped up in your question. Our means to an end starts and ends with us wanting something, or to avoid something. So we want what we want and the end is getting what we desire. While Jesus is our desire, He is our means, in Him are all the means and ends are found, hell has nothing to do with it.

It is a yes or no question, KellyJay. Your umpteenth reiteration of "foundational statements about [your] faith" are a dodge.

@kellyjay said
Our means to an end starts and ends with us wanting something, or to avoid something.

Would your love for Jesus change your behaviour if there was no "gift" eternal life being offered to you?

@fmf said
Would your love for Jesus change your behaviour if there was no "gift" eternal life being offered to you?

My walk with Christ in the now has been a joy and solid foundation for my life, eternity is out of sight now. It is something to look forward to but what that is going to be like no clue.

@kellyjay said
My walk with Christ in the now has been a joy and solid foundation for my life, eternity is out of sight now. It is something to look forward to but what that is going to be like no clue.

I know that your faith gives you a solid foundation as you live your life. But it's also apparently making you evasive, too.

I am NOT asking you whether you have a "clue" or "no clue" what everlasting life is supposedly like. That is an answer to a question I did not ask you.

This is the question I am asking you: would your "walk with Christ" change your behaviour - in the way you claim it has - if death was the end and there was no eternal life resulting from your faith?

@fmf said
I know that your faith gives you a solid foundation as you live your life. But it's also apparently making you evasive, too.

I am NOT asking you whether you have a "clue" or "no clue" what everlasting life is supposedly like. That is an answer to a question I did not ask you.

This is the question I am asking you: would your "walk with Christ" change your behaviour - in th ...[text shortened]... way you claim it has - if death was the end and there was no eternal life resulting from your faith?

I've answered you, and you didn't like my answer and rejected it, so go back and
read what was already said. I'm not going to continue to repeat my answers or
find different ways to say the same thing over and over ad nauseam.

@kellyjay said
I've answered you, and you didn't like my answer and rejected it, so go back and
read what was already said. I'm not going to continue to repeat my answers or
find different ways to say the same thing over and over ad nauseam.

It was a yes or no question. It's not that I don't "like" your answer. I just don't care for this evasive spamming technique you so often use and so I don't consider it an "answer": it's the rhetorical equivalent of jazz hands tossing a smoke bomb... and I see it as low-integrity.

Come on, KellyJay, gird your passive-aggressive loins. It's a yes or no question:

Would your "walk with Christ" change your behaviour - in the way you claim it has - if death was the end and there was no eternal life resulting from your faith?

@fmf said
Following Christ is a personal experience with Him, the changes in behaviors are a result of the love of God in us not a means to an end.

If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if your destiny was eternal torture and NOT going to "Heaven"?

Are you quoting someone in the first paragraph? If so, why not identify them?

@suzianne said
I have no idea whom you are speaking to, or about.

Well, it's pretty clear that I am speaking about Christians who claim that following Christ is a personal experience with him and that the changes in behaviours result from the love of God in us and not a means to an end.

@suzianne said
I'm perfectly okay with 'following Christ' being a 'means to an end'.

OK, thank you for stating this unequivocally. The Christians who think differently from you and think following Christ is NOT a means to an end will be able to see you telling me this.

@fmf said

If following Jesus is not a means to an end for you, as a Christian, would you still have love of God, and so experience changes in behaviour, if there was no eternal life?

Depending on how/what you are taught the prospect of some form of continued existence is the headline and probably attracts people initially.

Paul did say in his letter to the Corinthians 15:32 "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Is he basically not saying "what is the point if the promise of life isn't true? We might as well just carry on."

If you appreciate the scale of the evil that is resident in this world, and the promise that God holds out to end it and remove the violence; hate; and sheer greed that entices one man to want to dominate another. If you could see that happening you could still love God without the promise of life.