Forgiveness (Bible Study)

Originally posted by chinking58
cute

So was your "explanation" of why a supposedly all-powerful God needed to have the Israelites commit mass murder and slavery to "protect" themselves. Surely such a God could have simply erected a Star Trek-like shield around His "chosen" people. As between the possibility that a warlike, semi-savage people created a monstrous God and the possibility that a truly all-powerful God needed to have the Israelites do his killing and enslaving in his stead, the former makes a lot more sense don't it? But, I know, God has personally told you different. Just try to stay away from sharp object, chinking58, and if somebody breaks into your house, don't think you can go over to his house and kill and/or enslave his family. That might be okeydokey with your Monster God but it's frowned on by the criminal law in these here parts.

Originally posted by no1marauder
So was your "explanation" of why a supposedly all-powerful God needed to have the Israelites commit mass murder and slavery to "protect" themselves. Surely such a God could have simply erected a Star Trek-like shield around His "chosen" people. As between the possibility that a warlike, semi-savage people created a monstrous God and the pos ...[text shortened]... be okeydokey with your Monster God but it's frowned on by the criminal law in these here parts.

The star-tek shield would be nice (I know I'd like to have one), but I think that God was at work in the new nation of Israel, not only for themselves, but used them as a 'type'. That is, as a model, or a mode of demonstrating to the whole world who He is, and what He holds important (essential) for all of us.
He certainly didn't hold back when it came time to teach His chosen people what they needed to know.

If you paid attention to history, you would know that Israel had just come out of 4 centuries of slavery, and when they went hungry in the desert they wanted to go back! And when their spies checked out Canaan, they were terrified; not 'warlike and semi-savage' at all.

Their struggle was a lot like the one you and I face: We must choose between moving ahead, putting our hope and faith in an all powerful exacting God who has good plans for us, or staying put under a yoke of bondage to 'the world, the flesh and the devil' where we may be fed 'leeks and onions' but are still kept as slaves.

What's up with this 'God personally told you' crap? Aren't we all here to share our viewpoints and have them reviewed by their merits?

The criminal law in these here parts, thankfully, has come down to us from the very Israel we're talking about here. Killing in self-defense is recognized and allowed for under our system. The vigilantiism you are trying to suggest I claim as a right, is not accepted.

But the proper authorities can go over to the suspect's house, arrest, try, convict and punish him. If you think big picture here no!, you'll have to agree that God fits into that category in the large scale.

Originally posted by chinking58
The star-tek shield would be nice (I know I'd like to have one), but I think that God was at work in the new nation of Israel, not only for themselves, but used them as a 'type'. That is, as a model, or a mode of demonstrating to the ...[text shortened]... have to agree that God fits into that category in the large scale.

Actually the Israelites were the ones breaking into the Canaanites, Philistines, etc. etc. etc. "house". Therefore, by your analogy, these people would have been fully justified to kill all the Israelites in self-defense.

Yes, the Israelites were a fine example: killing and enslaving entire peoples. Kudos to your Monster god for giving us all such a wonderful paradigm of virtue as the Israelite soldier sticking a sword into an infant in the Medianite Massacre and many other places in the Bible. Christians have certainly been willing to follow the Israelite example over the centuries; there's hundreds of millions of people's blood to attest to the faithfulness that Christian nations followed this wonderful "example".

No history I know of describes the incident you describe other than the self-serving "holy" book which justifies mass slaughter. I do not recognize such as historical fact. We know that the Isrealites conquered their empire by brutal force; and a group of people who invade other people's territory and put entire cities to the sword certainly rates as "warlike". The archeological evidence shows that their "civilization" was primitive compared to the other great empires of the area - Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, etc. Thus, "semi-savage" is fitting as well.

I don't agree that your Monster God fits into the category of a proper authority since he doesn't exist. He is a manufactured justification for mass murder and slavery created by a bunch of criminals. Any murderer can claim God told him it was OK to kill; do you believe them? I don't believe an individual criminal and I don't believe that the Old Testament's rationale for a million murders is any more convincing than the average nutjob's justification for one. You're twisted to believe a mericiful and loving God is fine with cutting the throat of a baby, Chinking58.

Originally posted by chinking58
The star-tek shield would be nice (I know I'd like to have one), but I think that God was at work in the new nation of Israel, not only for themselves, but used them as a 'type'. That is, as a model, or a mode of demonstrating to the ...[text shortened]... have to agree that God fits into that category in the large scale.

The concept of written laws came from Sumer ,,another place the pre Abram israElites conquered , even stole their legends and myths.
There was nothing god-like in Abram's god either, just another bull god named El , a modified An.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Actually the Israelites were the ones breaking into the Canaanites, Philistines, etc. etc. etc. "house". Therefore, by your analogy, these people would have been fully justified to kill all the Israelites in self-defense.

Yes, the Israelites were a fine example: killing and enslaving entire peoples. Kudos to your Monster god for giving ...[text shortened]... ed to believe a mericiful and loving God is fine with cutting the throat of a baby, Chinking58.

Ok number one, One more round. I understand that you have your mind set. In my opinion, that's too bad. I continue in the hope that some other, open-minded person will at least read and consider whether there is any sense in the perspective I'm sharing.

The enemies of Israel were the enemies of God. These people had been invading God's 'house' for a long time, demonstrating to Him exactly where they stood with Him and the nature of how they would live. If God was the instigator of evil, if that was His nature, He would have had no reason to create us in the first place and certainly no reason to wait before He began destroying. Does not that simple point make sense? Yes, no1, I hold the premise that the Biblical history is true. Sue me.

Being the ultimate multi-tasker, God's plan was to use Israel to punish the inhabitants of the land while at the same time revealing Himself and His ways to His people.

I'm not sure what infant you're referring to here no1. But I certainly don't have the idea that every action taken by every person in the Bible , just because it was described in the Bible, was a good action! Most of the stories are told as bad examples doncha know? We are told repeatedly that most (if not all) of the Kings of Israel were bad kings! Bad, meaning not pleasing to God; not following God's instructions; not obedient or faithful to Him. Even the heroes of the Bible had their bad sides. (That's how we can relate to them personally, and how their lives have relevance today! People are people; always have been, always will be.) It all adds up to more evidence of our need for a savior actually.

Yes indeed. Many 'christians' over the centuries have been entirely unfaithful to Christ. I would submit that such actions were not taken by individuals who were authentically devoted to Christ. Hitler managed to take down millions, all the time posing as a christian, but I don't think anyone would dare to say that he actually represented what God wants in one of His own.

If there is no God, friend, then there is no criminal and no such thing as a criminal act! No standards, no right and wrong. No reason to argue or complain, and nothing to do but sit back and play chess for no good reason.

But there is a God! And He is good! And He loves YOU! The issue we have to deal with is whether or not we love Him, and are willing to trust Him.

No, God is not fine with any killing of any baby. I believe He grieves over every hurt, every tear and certainly every death. And yet, even though He is our judge and must act accordingly, He goes to great lengths to encourage repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Originally posted by chinking58
Ok number one, One more round. I understand that you have your mind set. In my opinion, that's too bad. I continue in the hope that some other, open-minded person will at least read and consider whether there is any sense in the perspective I'm sharing.

The enemies of Israel were the enemies of God. These people had been invading God's 'house' ...[text shortened]... . He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It's pretty amusing to have someone who blindly believes in a collection of ancient texts to the point of refusing to discuss the matter using logic, say someone else has their "mind set". I assume that's some kind of Christain humor.

No, your "point" doesn't make any sense. You and I have no way to know if there is a creator God. Further, even if there is, it is presumptous of you to pretend you know its reason to do anything. Maybe it is evil and likes to see us suffer; who knows? Certainly you don't. The religious zealots on this site insist the human race is a bunch of degraded filth but that God created us so we could worship and praise him. Does that make any sense? Why would an all-powerful God care what an insignificant bunch of worms think (in their view, not mine)? Logic is not Christianity's strong point.

You now seem to be denying what you conceded in your first post: that the God of the OT commanded that children be killed in some instances. If so, your OT memory is rusty. I have collected a group of such stories in the thread "Sickening Bible Stories" which is on page 12 of this forum. In particular, there is a long discussion of the Midianite Massacre, Numbers 31: 1-19. In verse 17, God directs that all male children be killed. So belief in your monster God assumes that he in his infinite wisdom would find it necessary to direct that his chosen people stick swords in babies to teach us all a lesson. I think he could have figured out something less drastic, don't you?

Whether there is a God or not, there can be standards of right and wrong arrived at by moral consensus or other means. Please study a book of Ethical Philosophy or invite Bbarr to discuss the matter with you as he is our resident expert. I may be an agnostic, but I do not believe in an "anything goes" morality; I just don't need a Monster God to scare me into treating other human beings in an ethical manner.

The rest of your post is proselytizing ranting. I'm not interested in such rot; present logical arguments to me or you are wasting your time.

Originally posted by no1marauder
... refusing to discuss the matter using logic, ... Logic is not Christianity's strong point.
...I may be an agnostic, but I do not believe in an "anything goes" morality;...
The rest of your post is proselytizing ranting. I'm not interested in such rot; present logical arguments to me or you are wasting your time.

I was going to say it's amazing that someone who's strongest arguments are fallacies would even use the word logic. But then again, it makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Coletti
I was going to say it's amazing that someone who's strongest arguments are fallacies would even use the word logic. But then again, it makes perfect sense.

A typical post of yours: saying nothing but pretending to speak from authority. You have no idea how to construct an argument; I do it for a living. Please go back to raving against science; it's far more amusing than attempts at personal attacks like your idiotic post above.

Originally posted by no1marauder
A typical post of yours: saying nothing but pretending to speak from authority. You have no idea how to construct an argument; I do it for a living. Please go back to raving against science; it's far more amusing than attempts at personal attacks like your idiotic post above.

Someone pays you to spout off? You don't have to know a thing about logic to construct fallacious arguments. Do you right political speeches? That would fit.

Originally posted by Coletti
Someone pays you to spout off? You don't have to know a thing about logic to construct fallacious arguments. Do you right political speeches? That would fit.

Since the entire content of your arguments are "The Westminister Statement of Faith says God says so" for you to call ANYONE else's arguments fallacious is hilarious. However, it is kinda unsurprising that someone who believes in predestination thinks that a circular argument isn't fallacious. RBHILL is more of an intellectual than you are.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Since the entire content of your arguments are "The Westminister Statement of Faith says God says so" for you to call ANYONE else's arguments fallacious is hilarious. However, it is kinda unsurprising that someone who believes in predestination thinks that a circular argument isn't fallacious. RBHILL is more of an intellectual than you are.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Actually the Israelites were the ones breaking into the Canaanites, Philistines, etc. etc. etc. "house". Therefore, by your analogy, these people would have been fully justified to kill all the Israelites in self-defense.

Yes, the Israelites were a fine example: killing and enslaving entire peoples. Kudos to your Monster god for giving ...[text shortened]... ed to believe a mericiful and loving God is fine with cutting the throat of a baby, Chinking58.

No1: " He is a manufactured justification for mass murder and slavery created by a bunch of criminals."

Are you talking about the Jewish people, No1 ?

Originally posted by no1marauder
It's pretty amusing to have someone who blindly believes in a collection of ancient texts to the point of refusing to discuss the matter using logic, say someone else has their "mind set". I assume that's some kind of Christain humor.

No, your "point" doesn't make any sense. You and I have no way to know if there is a creator God ...[text shortened]... . I'm not interested in such rot; present logical arguments to me or you are wasting your time.

No1: "I just don't need a Monster God to scare me into treating other human beings in an ethical manner."

I can testify to that and I'm sure a lot of other RHP debators can do the same .......

Thank you so much No1 for treating me in an ethical manner ...... You really make my day.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
No1: " He is a manufactured justification for mass murder and slavery created by a bunch of criminals."

Are you talking about the Jewish people, No1 ?

I am talking about the ancient people who drowned their hands in blood in the Midianite Massacre and other atrocities. Wouldn't you consider them war criminals and also guilty of crimes against humanity, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
No1: "I just don't need a Monster God to scare me into treating other human beings in an ethical manner."

I can testify to that and I'm sure a lot of other RHP debators can do the same .......

Thank you so much No1 for treating me in an ethical manner ...... You really make my day.

Do onto others as they do onto you is somewhere in a Bible, ain't it Ivanhoe? At the very least, it would certainly be an ethical moral principle. Do people who call others "Nazis" "Brown Trash" "Lovers of Death" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. really have a legitimate bitch if others treat them harshly in response?