Forgiveness (Bible Study)

Originally posted by Ringtailhunter
Where does it say in the Bible that god "Created" satan?

I can't find it.

Thanks,

RTh

I'll have to look it up, and the answer may be deductive. But I believe it says that God created the angels, and that Satan is a fallen angel.

Originally posted by Coletti
I'll have to look it up, and the answer may be deductive. But I believe it says that God created the angels, and that Satan is a fallen angel.


The way I interpret it is that the angels were there to cheer god on when he did his creating. I don't think that the bible specifically says that he created the angels, just everything else. It can be assumed that they have always been just as God has.
God gave Satan rule of the world to give mankind a choice, and God stays out of it. God promised to come back and save those who rejected Satan and banish all evil from the world. This strife we live in is a lesson he is teaching both to the people, and Satan and his angels (an I toldya so if you will).

RTh

Originally posted by Coletti
You're splitting hairs. You clearly know what I mean because you have restated it. "If God has acted according to His will, then you haven't made God do anything." You pick apart one sentence - demand I mean what you clearly know that is not what I mean - and for no good reason.

Not at all. You were markedly imprecise in your sentence and I
called you on it. To say 'Don't make God angry' is foolishness. He's
already angry according to you -- He knew He would be because He
knew when you'd sin and what you'd do. The discussion of God's
anger (assuming we tie it to sin) is meaningless because we cannot
do anything about it.

God is angry about sin. There's no denying that God hates sin.

I find it interesting that an omniscient and omnipotent God would
allow for the creation of something He hates and makes Him angry.
I know, for my part, I prefer to avoid situations that make me angry
and eschew things I hate. Yet God (as you define Him) is all-powerful
and all-knowing and permits this. In fact, according to you, He knew
that all of this evil was going to take place, yet He created it anyway.

Can you explain this?

I know this is a difficult concept - but I also know you understand what I am saying. You're smarter than that. So quite splitting hairs and deal with the fact that God understands you (and me) and that is a scary thing in itself. No joke.

It is a difficult concept. When you say a person can 'make God angry'
you obscure any coherent meaning whatsoever. This is my point:
avoid saying things which run contrary to your perspective. It only
serves to undermine any point you are trying to make.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
... Yet God (as you define Him) is all-powerful
and all-knowing and permits this. In fact, according to you, He knew
that all of this evil was going to take place, yet He created it anyway.

Can you explain this?

I think I already have explained it. Would you like to rephrase you question? Do you want to know why God created things the way He did?

Originally posted by Coletti
I think I already have explained it. Would you like to rephrase you question? Do you want to know why God created things the way He did?

I appear to have missed it. Where is the explanation for
why God created something that He would necessarily know would
anger Him?

Does God like being angry? If not, why would He create things in
such a fashion that being angry would be His normative state (because
at this very moment someone is sinning)?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Coletti
I think I already have explained it. Would you like to rephrase you question? Do you want to know why God created things the way He did?

Coletti: Do you want to know why God created things the way He did?


If he personally chatted with you and let you know, I'd sure be curious to hear what he had to say. If it is merely your interpretion of stitched together passages in a compilation of ancient writings, then we are able to puzzle it out just as (in)effectively as you.

Originally posted by Nemesio
I appear to have missed it. Where is the explanation for
why God created something that He would necessarily know would
anger Him?

Does God like being angry? If not, why would He create things in
such a fashion that being angry would be His normative state (because
at this very moment someone is sinning)?

Nemesio

I also explained that anger is not an emotion for God that way it is for you and me. We have emotional reactions to things that upset us. We might say that something "made us angry." But that is just how we make an excuse for our losing control of our emotions. We can control feelings to some extent by controlling our thinking. But we do not have perfect control over our feelings our thoughts.

Now God already knows what's going to happen so he does not "react" in the sense that we do. And God has complete control over His anger. It is all in accord to his will when He is angry. So God's anger is analogical to human anger. That is where you are getting confused. You get angry when things happen that you don't want to happen. God controls all things, so anger can not mean exactly the same thing. But neither is it so different that we can not understand the implications of God's anger.

The question becomes then, what does it mean for God to be angry, or become angry. What purpose does God have in being angry when he is. And typically, it is to convey to us the knowledge that God will not abide sin or disobedience. And our dilemma is that we are born sinners - always in some fashion or degree failing to be perfect in our obedience.

And that is why we are in need of something that will be a propitiation to God's wrath. We need something that will appease God, that will turn His righteous anger away from us - that will remove the penaty of our sin.

Christ's death pays the cost for our sins. Christ is the "Passover Lamb." His death pays the price for sin. He redeems his chosen people, who could not do anything to redeem themselves.

The anger of God is about the penalty for sin. The death of Christ is the redemption of God's people. The resurrection is the proof that God accepts the payment - and declares believers not guilty. The love of God is that when we were dead in our sins, He gave us Christ to be the true Passover Lamb. Why? All I can say is it is what God wills.

Originally posted by Siebren

I'm willing to try to answer your questions to do so I'd like to ask some of my own first.

1) The Bible is translated into many languages, the words "Sword" and "love" are your statistics from the English translation, or from the Latin version? Words and phrases always get lost in translations. I'm not sure if the ratio sword/love changes.

2 ...[text shortened]... out the Sword?

3) Who found out love?

Grtz,

Siebren
(Not a Christian, well not truly)

I'm sorry but I don't understand your questions (but then I can guarantee that my Dutch is much worse that your English!) What do you mean "who found out the sword"?

The statistics I quote are from the King James Version of the Bible.

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
Nowhere in the bible will we find "and jesus spake, saying 'strewth mate, I'd love a cold beer'"

What does this tell us about the nature of God?

"strewth mate" is an english term and we know God was not English, an American !

Una

Originally posted by Nemesio
I appear to have missed it. Where is the explanation for
why God created something that He would necessarily know would
anger Him?

Does God like being angry? If not, why would He create things in
such a fashion that being angry would be His normative state (because
at this very moment someone is sinning)?

Nemesio

Why do you create kids? They poop their paints, break windows with baseballs, go to college and in general cost you lots of money...

Originally posted by Maustrauser
Week 26

Deuteronomy
Chapter 20

Verse 10. When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all ...[text shortened]... l against the city.

Forward your answers to RBHill for marking.

Deuteronomy 20 New International Version
1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."
5 The officers shall say to the army: "Has anyone built a new house and not dedicated it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else may dedicate it. 6 Has anyone planted a vineyard and not begun to enjoy it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else enjoy it. 7 Has anyone become pledged to a woman and not married her? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else marry her." 8 Then the officers shall add, "Is any man afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his brothers will not become disheartened too." 9 When the officers have finished speaking to the army, they shall appoint commanders over it.

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.

Hey Maus, It's too bad that you didn't quote the whole chapter. It's evident from the beginning that God is giving His chosen people instructions on how to deal with their enemies. Let's assume that we all know what that means. Even though He is telling the Israelites how to deal with those who hate them and will be trying to destroy them, the first thing God says (after allowing so many generous, kindhearted deferrments to His own troops) is to offer peace.
If they accept the offer, unconditional surrender is naturally required.

If these enemies continue to refuse your peace offer, then, naturally, you would besiege their city. I expect that the Israelites could have also had peace with such enemies by joining them in their destitute ways. (Like I could 'win over' new friends for myself my choosing to hang out at the bar and smoke and drink myself to death.) But God is introducing His judgement here. Making His expectations regarding how nations should live out their lives very clear. 'I have created you to live life up to a certain standard. These Canaanites, Jebusites and mosquitobites have chosen to violate what I have always had written on their hearts, and now the world will see that the wages of sin is death," God might be saying.

'Smiting' (killing) the enemy makes sense in the context of a 'moral' war. When it is a culture of depravity that you are attacking, you don't just topple the government and it's military, occupy until the people can recover from their late tryrant's reign and then help them rebuild the infrastructure.

Ok, the men get killed. The men are the ones that set the whole depraved culture in motion. Speculating here, but simply under the opposite premise that you seemed to have started with. Mine is that God is good (by definition I think), and that He knows what He's doing(also by definition). With that approach, my mind is open enough to make real sense of what I'm reading here. In some cases God did require Israel to kill even the women and children. I speculate then that, again, God knew what was required for the demands of justice and for cleansing and protection of righteousness. God takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked, but He does what He has to do. In this case, God spared the women and children. It seems clear to me that God is naturally kind and considerate, and only goes to the smiting type of judgement when it is necessary.

By the way, when I read 'women, children and cattle', I don't translate that as 'sexual playthings' as you did. The speculation you made regarding what happens to them after not being smitten is your own.

Sorry, but this passage does not demonstrate that the Christian God of the Bible is full of forgiveness. Every passage does not focus on this one attribute of God. I think this one demonstrates that God is a God of standards. He knows what is good for His 'children' and when they have decided to disown Him. At that point He exercises His right to judge them and send them on their way where they wont hurt anyone besides themselves any more.

Originally posted by chinking58
[b/]Deuteronomy 20 New International Version
1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, ...[text shortened]... their way where they wont hurt anyone besides themselves any more.

Anyone who justifies slaughtering or enslaving entire populations is truly demented. You need help, brother; no God authorized such a thing - certainly not a merciful one. The Israelites created a mad God to justify their terrible crimes against humanity; many ancient warlike people created similar gods. That anyone would worship such a monstrous creation in the 21st Century is sickening.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Anyone who justifies slaughtering or enslaving entire populations is truly demented. You need help, brother; no God authorized such a thing - certainly not a merciful one. The Israelites created a mad God to justify their terrible ...[text shortened]... orship such a monstrous creation in the 21st Century is sickening.

I think it's a matter of scale my friend.

If some one broke into your house and was trying to kill your wife, I don't think you'd have a problem 'slaughtering' him. Or if someone was about to kidnap your children, you wouldn't hesitate to 'enslave' him.

God is bigger, and deals with the bigger picture.

Originally posted by chinking58
I think it's a matter of scale my friend.

If some one broke into your house and was trying to kill your wife, I don't think you'd have a problem 'slaughtering' him. Or if someone was about to kidnap your children, you wouldn't hesitate to 'enslave' him.

God is bigger, and deals with the bigger picture.

🙄🙄🙄

Originally posted by no1marauder
🙄🙄🙄

cute