Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He created man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart."(Gen. 6:5&6 NKJV)
"God could just let people who do not believe in him die and stay dead."
Once again you've fallen into the ever popular trap of humanizieg deity.
We routinely manufacture disposable commercial and personal goods.
He doesn't. His Person, Impeccable; His Plan, Perfect; His Work, Flawless.
God doesn't do things half way. Soul Life He Created is Permanent.
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If your God was flawless and perfect, then what about the passage above?
It says he was sorry for the action he took. He did not foresee the consequences
of that action and therefore he was sorry he took such action.
How is that evidence of being perfect and flawless?
Originally posted by Rank outsiderI do not claim to have all the answers, and I will not package God in a box. I am simply stating what I have read and studied for the last 40 or so years. I have learned new things and had to adjust from time to time. I do know this...God is Love, He is merciful, but He does demand Justice. The gray area is what you just mentioned, someone who has never heard the Teachings of Jesus or the bible, period.
I didn't laugh at you.
I also didn't introduce the concept of sin. In the post where you introduced this topic, you said 'unbelievers' and I took it at that.
I merely expressed amazement that you are so accepting of the fact that a person, born in a time and place where the predominant religion is not Christianity, and therefore statistically ...[text shortened]... re time. That is a very odd concept of mercy, which I think was something Jesus advocated.
This is where I resort to the fact that God is Just and Merciful. He is all wise and I trust he will do what is right.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyIf I may, I would like to take a stab at this. It is a very keen and good question.
"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He created man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart."(Gen. 6:5&6 NKJV)
If your God was flawless and perfect, then what about the passage above?
It says he was sorry fo ...[text shortened]... efore he was sorry he took such action.
How is that evidence of being perfect and flawless?
There are a growing number of Theologians who believe God is not Omnipotent, but He knows every thing can be known, nor does he perfectly know the future. He makes the future. He takes calculated chances. He is like a brilliant chess player who is 1000 moves ahead of every one else.
It is the best explanation for what you stated above.
Satan is also a good chess player, but he is a created being and maybe 100 moves ahead of everyone else.
As you take this theory into consideration, it explains a great deal as you read the old testament. As for what I believe, it is an interesting theory and I am still open to it.
Originally posted by SuzianneNot really.
And does answering your questions, serve any other purpose than entertainment for YOU?
When we do give you an answer, you (and others) merely reply you don't believe 'any of that hogwash' and so you simply 'poo-poo' the answer. And then you sit there and claim we never discussed the issue with you, because our answer didn't jive with what you wanted to hear. Well too bad.
Clever, clever..... You don't answer the question, whist pretending that it is actually me that isn't listening.
Again, stop distorting what happens so that you can portray people in whatever derogatory light you want.
Feel free to try and find a single post on this forum with an answer to that question.
You don't believe the answer,
I have never asked for an answer that requires my belief. I have asked for an explanation of what you and other theists believe.
so why even try to explain anything to you when you don't listen?
You don't have to if you don't want to. But please stop pretending you have when we both know you haven't.
Make up your mind, either you, or someone like you, explained it, and I didn't listen, or you never explained it. You can't have it both ways.
Most times, I'd rather eat nails than try to have an intelligent discussion with people like you.
I don't recall us ever having an intelligent discussion, so no worries there.
Because you never listen, all you want to do is distort, deny, disassociate and derail. If you want real answers, then be prepared for answers you may not believe in.
I never asked for answers I am prepared to believe in did I?
Oh, and maybe you could try treating us like humans, too. We're not here just for your entertainment.
Says the girl who was on witch hunt for me recently, for no apparent reason, and no appoligies either I noticed.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat is an interesting theory you put forward.
If I may, I would like to take a stab at this. It is a very keen and good question.
There are a growing number of Theologians who believe God is not Omnipotent, but He knows every thing can be known, nor does he perfectly know the future. He makes the future. He takes calculated chances. He is like a brilliant chess player who is 1000 moves ahead of ev ...[text shortened]... the old testament. As for what I believe, it is an interesting theory and I am still open to it.
Perhaps it has some merit, but I believe in
facts. Not superstition, or stories or theories.
There is no person on this planet can actually
prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is in fact a God.
The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by
various humans not gods over a period of 1600
years.
It's content is confusing and allegorical.
It's odd that we have to swear on the Bible in court
and yet if the Bible was the subject of a court case
it would be difficult to prove that the content therein
is absolute proof of the existence of a deity.
Originally posted by checkbaiterNo, I don't think that is what he mentioned (though he may correct me if I get it wrong).
The gray area is what you just mentioned, someone who has never heard the Teachings of Jesus or the bible, period.
I believe what he was talking about is people who are not brought up indoctrinated into the religion. They may hear about Christians, they may have read the Bible, but then need something more than following Parental authority or societal traditions to cause them to choose Christianity over the myriad of other religions out there.
And what about people like me that rebelled against parental authority and societal traditions? I am not aware of doing anything morally wrong with regards to religion, I am also not convinced that Christianity is the truth. Yet you say I should be burnt for something and that this has something to do with justice.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterYou think the only grey area is a person who has never heard of the teachings of Jesus or the Bible?
I do not claim to have all the answers, and I will not package God in a box. I am simply stating what I have read and studied for the last 40 or so years. I have learned new things and had to adjust from time to time. I do know this...God is Love, He is merciful, but He does demand Justice. The gray area is what you just mentioned, someone who has never ...[text shortened]... to the fact that God is Just and Merciful. He is all wise and I trust he will do what is right.
What about the person that puts the Bible and [insert a religious text of your choice] side by side and makes a genuine attempt to decide which is right, but chooses the other in good faith?
Unless you can explain why it should be clear and obvious to everyone that the Bible must be the right choice, I still fail to see how you can be relaxed that your God will just toss this person into the Lake of Fire.
Or indeed the person who simply decides he cannot work out which is the right text, and so decides to live a moral life by his/her own terms?
And that person then happens to live a life which, by most Christian measures of what is moral, is indeed a moral one.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNo, you are spot on.
No, I don't think that is what he mentioned (though he may correct me if I get it wrong).
I believe what he was talking about is people who are not brought up indoctrinated into the religion. They may hear about Christians, they may have read the Bible, but then need something more than following Parental authority or societal traditions to cause them to ...[text shortened]... th. Yet you say I should be burnt for something and that this has something to do with justice.
Originally posted by Rank outsider"I have to read this type of thing." Since, when? "No" Equals Freedom. If some gal you're fond of suggests sex in a coffin, do you mechanically roll over with an obsequious, "Whatevever turns you on, Babe"? You own a volition; its job is to flash red lights and green. What a cop-out to run to Suzianne, cradling your latest intellectual gem in outstretch arms. Please tell us that you were kidding.
Well, Suzianne, you complain that people unfairly say that Christians don't give proper answers to their questions, and then I have to read this type of thing.
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyI think the bible would do very well in court...ever read the New Testament Documents by FF Bruce? Probably not....
That is an interesting theory you put forward.
Perhaps it has some merit, but I believe in
facts. Not superstition, or stories or theories.
There is no person on this planet can actually
prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is in fact a God.
The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by
various humans not gods over a period ...[text shortened]... be difficult to prove that the content therein
is absolute proof of the existence of a deity.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyNo, I was just hoping that it might prompt Suzianne to post a serious answer to my question, which you are continuing to avoid.
"I have to read this type of thing." Since, when? "No" Equals Freedom. If some gal you're fond of suggests sex in a coffin, do you mechanically roll over with an obsequious, "Whatevever turns you on, Babe"? You own a volition; its job is to flash red lights and green. What a cop-out to run to Suzianne, cradling your latest intellectual gem in outstretch arms. Please tell us that you were kidding.
.
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderYour question is How can he be expected to? Or is it How could he possibly choose Christianity?
I am very happy for you to give me an answer, I will listen to it and I will give it serious consideration.
The question is:
How can anyone who was not born into a Christian family or society be expected to determine that Christianity is the one true faith, as opposed to the hundreds of others that exist or have existed in the past?
Who expects him to? I wouldn't expect him to. I would counsel him to go to a Christian church, to visit a Christian family's house and share a meal with them. I would support his quest for the truth with answers to his questions to the best of my ability, secure that he's not just there to yank my chains and that he really wants to know my viewpoint. And then his choice is his own.
You speak as if Christianity is just another of the (as you say) hundreds of other faiths. Well, most (and I mean most, like 95+% ) of those 'other faiths' are just plain ridiculous to anyone with a modern mind (like worshipping Aten-Ra, or Quetzalcoatl, you get my drift). Anyone choosing a religion in this day and age is left with a surprising few to choose from (like counting on one hand, ok, maybe two ). Left with that, I'm sure he could find enough answers to make his decision. Lots of people do the same every day.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI have to say, Bob, even I find your circumlocution hard to wade through sometimes. It doesn't surprise me that some people would claim that you continually dodge their questions. This is why I recently suggested to you to avoid the multiple winding paths, and take the straight, wide avenue once in a while. You gotta know your audience.
Relieved, thanks.