"Former Christians"

Originally posted by sonship
So you are saying that had she been in another geographic area, another culture, another community, and another family etc. she might have, who knows, ended up as a "former Christian" ?

No, I am not saying that at all, as I think you well know.

Originally posted by sonship
Was your choice of being a former _____ largely just the outcome of geography, culture, community, family too? .

I don't think there's much doubt that I ended up a Christian because of geography, culture, community, family, regardless of whether my faith may have transcended those things later in life as I traveled to and lived in other cultures. My next door neighbour here in Indonesia is a Muslim. I think it is undoubtedly partly the outcome of geography, culture, community, family - although there are many Christians, Hindus and Buddhists in this city. Suzianne and I most likely would have been Muslims too if we had been born and grew up in the street in which I now live. As for my choice to be a "former Christian", that is about the beliefs I did and did not have, and how they changed, and probably happened - to a degree - despite the "geography, culture, community, family" that shaped me.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think there's much doubt that I ended up a Christian because of geography, culture, community, family, regardless of whether my faith may have transcended those things later in life as I traveled to and lived in other cultures. My next door neighbour here in Indonesia is a Muslim. I think it is undoubtedly partly the outcome of geography, culture, commun - to a degree - [b]despite the "geography, culture, community, family" that shaped me.[/b]

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you odd." (Flannery O'Conner)

Originally posted by Suzianne
Your question is How can he be expected to? Or is it How could he possibly choose Christianity?

Who expects him to? I wouldn't expect him to. I would counsel him to go to a Christian church, to visit a Christian family's house and share a meal with them. I would support his quest for the truth with answers to his questions to the best of my ability, re he could find enough answers to make his decision. Lots of people do the same every day.

Yes, and lots choose another religion, for which some believe they are going to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.

I just see no reason why anyone should reasonably conclude that one religion is right over many others.

Well, most (and I mean most, like 95+% ) of those 'other faiths' are just plain ridiculous to anyone with a modern mind (like worshipping Aten-Ra, or Quetzalcoatl, you get my drift)

I am afraid I seriously don't get your drift.

Many branches of Christianity require me to believe that:

1 There was a virgin birth

2 Miracles were performed and continue to be performed to this day

3 The world was created 6,000 years ago in 7 days

etc etc.

I know you don't believe in all of this, but I expect you believe some of these. I think it is reasonable for a non-believer to see these as just 'plain ridiculous' to a 'modern mind'. Again, the focus of my question is why you accept the 'plain ridiculous' of, say, the virgin birth, and not the 'plain ridiculous' of many other religions. (inverted commas deliberate, no offence is intended)

Anyone choosing a religion today is left with a surprising few to choose from

Well, there are aound 20 major religions apart from Christianity. Have you studied them all in as much depth as Christianity? Have you spent time in the churches of all these religions? Have you visited the houses of these people of different faiths and shared a meal with them?

If you have not, why do you counsel people to take steps that you haven't?

If you have, how did you reach the conclusion that Chistianity, above all others, was the correct faith to follow?

What has the person who, in good faith, chooses another done that is so wrong that they should be resurrected and then tossed into a Lake of Fire?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Probably. Which is to say, yes. It's very likely. But I still think I would have been brought around to Christianity sooner or later.


I have to say, though, that your 'given' is not as 'given' as you might think.

I think, and the statistics support this, that this is highly doubtful. You may not have been as committed a Christian all your life as you are now, but you were brought up in the Christian faith and this would have had a dramatic influence on whether, when you becamse fully committed to a religion, it would have most likely been Christianity.

However, assuming you had been brought up a Hindu and remained a Hindu, do you think you deserve to be resurrected by God and killed for this?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Yes, and lots choose another religion, for which some believe they are going to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.

I just see no reason why anyone should reasonably conclude that one religion is right over many others.

[quote]Well, most (and I mean most, like 95+% ) of those 'other faiths' are just plain ridiculous to anyone with a modern mind (like wor e that is so wrong that they should be resurrected and then tossed into a Lake of Fire?

Many Side Roads and Diversions but Only One Road Leads Home, Horizontally and Vertically.

http://www.godvine.com/bible/Matthew/7-13
http://www.godvine.com/bible/Matthew/7-14

Note: A Scroll Down to the Comments May Be Well Worth the Trip.

Originally posted by FMF
Which other religions did you delve into and consider at that time? The point being, 'choice of faith' is quite clearly is affected by geography, culture, community, family etc. There are Hindus and Muslims in Bali, for example, who have not "been brought around to Christianity sooner or later" despite living alongside each other and being aware of their differe ...[text shortened]... than really imagining yourself to be Balinese and having been raised in the Hindu tradition?

I agree that one's 'choice of faith' may indeed be affected by geography, culture, community and family. Yes, I realize there are Hindus and Muslims who are strong in their faith, it is what speaks to them. Even if I had been brought up in those faiths, I think I would still be curious about this 'western religion', and kids are social sponges, they pick up an amazing amount of what they see on a daily basis. I think I would have questions about Christianity at least. I know that Christianity speaks to me, and perhaps yes, that is the 'American me' speaking.

Sorry, I just realized I did not answer your first question. I did not 'delve into' or consider any other religions at the time. Christianity spoke to me with a clear voice and it all kind of 'fell together' for me. I could feel it in my soul that it was right. Some people stay married to their high-school sweethearts their entire lives. When it's right (for you, at least, I might add), you know it.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think there's much doubt that I ended up a Christian because of geography, culture, community, family, regardless of whether my faith may have transcended those things later in life as I traveled to and lived in other cultures. My next door neighbour here in Indonesia is a Muslim. I think it is undoubtedly partly the outcome of geography, culture, commun ...[text shortened]... - to a degree - [b]despite the "geography, culture, community, family" that shaped me.[/b]

See, people can (and often do) buck the 'natural' trends which describe their life to that point. Given a large enough revelation, or 'aha moment', anyone can spin their life on a dime and change their life. Sure, it's not common, but it's not unheard of, either.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Yes, and lots choose another religion, for which some believe they are going to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.

I just see no reason why anyone should reasonably conclude that one religion is right over many others.

[quote]Well, most (and I mean most, like 95+% ) of those 'other faiths' are just plain ridiculous to anyone with a modern mind (like at is so wrong that they should be resurrected and then tossed into a Lake of Fire?

Yes, and lots choose another religion, for which some believe they are going to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.

I just see no reason why anyone should reasonably conclude that one religion is right over many others.

You speak like many other atheists here. Like you have a chip about a mile wide on your shoulder.

I am afraid I seriously don't get your drift.

You must 'get it' at least a little bit, because you lowered your estimate of the number of religions people have to (realistically) choose from, from 200 down to 20. Well, that is progress.

Well, there are aound 20 major religions apart from Christianity. Have you studied them all in as much depth as Christianity? Have you spent time in the churches of all these religions? Have you visited the houses of these people of different faiths and shared a meal with them?

If you have not, why do you counsel people to take steps that you haven't?

(I've already explained this, but) After I had become exposed to Christianity, my search was over. Christianity spoke to me and it filled my soul. No, I had not done those things. While doing those things might have been illuminating, doing those things would not have changed my mind one whit. I would counsel people (who are still searching) to do these things (looking at Christianity) because I am a Christian. This is my recommendation for those who are still looking and who may not be familiar with Christianity. I'm sure those of other faiths would recommend a similar course for those still looking who may not be familiar with their religion.

What has the person who, in good faith, chooses another done that is so wrong that they should be resurrected and then tossed into a Lake of Fire?

Ahhh, now we approach the source of that chip on your shoulder. I do not hold this view. Perhaps you should not toss every follower of a certain religion into the same pot. The only ones going that way are those who deny the Christ. Those who know all about who he is, his role in man's salvation and who have rejected that in its entirety. I think those who are faithful in another religion and do not know of Christ will be taught about him and given the choice to follow him or not. I believe there are many paths to God, but the one final piece of the puzzle to bridge the gap between man and God is Jesus Christ. Those who don't know of him will be taught and then asked to decide. Those who already know of him and have already rejected him receive no 'second chance'.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Many branches of Christianity require me to believe that:

1 There was a virgin birth

2 Miracles were performed and continue to be performed to this day

3 The world was created 6,000 years ago in 7 days

etc etc.

I know you don't believe in all of this, but I expect you believe some of these. I think it is reasonable for a non-believer to diculous' of many other religions. (inverted commas deliberate, no offence is intended)

Well, out of the three you put forth, I believe in about 1 and a half.

Yes, there was a virgin birth. Yes, miracles were performed. I do not believe that miracles 'continue to be performed to this day'. And I do not believe the world was created 6,000 years ago in 7 (24-hour) days.

I would say to you that believing in a virgin birth is a cornerstone of Christianity. A virgin birth is necessary to prevent the taint of original sin from the infant Jesus. (Jesus was without sin. This is necessary to be the 'sinless lamb' to pay the price for man's sins. Once you see the 'why' it begins to make sense. Maybe I overestimate man's ability to have faith. I know some men do not believe any of this, but they also have their own agendas, their own internal reason for not believing.) I would go even further and say that no god would require that humans be sacrificed by having their hearts cut out of their bodies. I similarly would probably not worship a god who claimed to carry the sun across the sky daily in a chariot. And the list goes on of things that are a lot tougher to believe than a simple virgin birth.

Before you go on to tell me how ridiculous this all is (yes, I've heard it before), this is my answer to you. This is my reasoning. That's what you asked for. You're not going to change my mind by running all this down and insulting my religion. You asked. I answered. If you don't like the answer you get, then maybe you shouldn't be asking the scary questions. (Where did I hear that before?)

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, miracles were performed. I do not believe that miracles 'continue to be performed to this day'.

Are you able to square that with Hebrews 13:8?

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, out of the three you put forth, I believe in about 1 and a half.

Yes, there was a virgin birth. Yes, miracles were performed. I do not believe that miracles 'continue to be performed to this day'. And I do not believe the world was created 6,000 years ago in 7 (24-hour) days.

I would say to you that believing in a virgin birth is a cornerston ...[text shortened]... maybe you shouldn't be asking the scary questions. (Where did I hear that before?)

A young woman being told by an angel that she was been impregnated by a 'spirit' is a 'simple' thing to believe? Run me through the mechanics of how that would exactly work?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Before you go on to tell me how ridiculous this all is (yes, I've heard it before),...

But do you actually accept that to some people, who do not think like you, it does actually seem ridiculous? As ridiculous as Aten-Ra, or Quetzalcoatl that you earlier dismissed as not worth a second thought?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
A young woman being told by an angel that she was been impregnated by a 'spirit' is a 'simple' thing to believe? Run me through the mechanics of how that would exactly work?

God who created the heavens and the earth. I don't find it hard to believe God created a seed inside Mary.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Are you able to square that with Hebrews 13:8?

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

I believe miracles are performed every day somewhere. I have seen some myself, experienced some myself, and I hear of many from others. You just don't know where to look. You won;t see them in the news, nor TV, nor the newspapers, because the whole world is under the sway of the wicked one.
That means he runs the media, and most everything else in this world to try and discredit God and the bible.