Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAnd your the guy sitting in the corner freezing to death, but so far gone into your delusions brought on by the cold that you are dreaming of a nice warm fire and hot soup.
The turn this conversation's taken reminds me of hikers sitting around in a circle within a few steps from their tents on some bitterly cold night at an elevation they knew would present challenges. Kindling and logs have already been provided. All have matches or lighters available in their gear sacks. Yet, they freeze. All are intellectually stymied a ...[text shortened]... ghable, heart wrenching and pitiful. Why, so often, does random chat trump decisive action?
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I find it interesting that you keep hinting about some secret happiness that you have found, but the moment anyone asks you about it you either keep quiet or get all vague. Its as if you think you know some special secret and entertain yourself by gloating at everyone else who doesn't know it, and you keep dropping little hints to make yourself feel really clever.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat's fine.
I won't pursue this any longer because I don't think it would make any difference.
But you did not provide a response to my point as to why it is fair or just for a person who is brought up and remains, say, a Hindu in good faith all their lives to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.
Unless you can, then your belief appears to present your God as random, cruel and barbaric. (Note: I did not say that your God is random, cruel and barbaric, just the way you have presented it so far.)
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The turn this conversation's taken reminds me of hikers sitting around in a circle within a few steps from their tents on some bitterly cold night at an elevation they knew would present challenges. Kindling and logs have already been provided. All have matches or lighters available in their gear sacks. Yet, they freeze. All are intellectually stymied and content to swap thoughts on virtually any topic under the sun; to speculate on what it might be like to once again be warm; and to complain about the complexities of camping, while none have the motivation or will to get up off their loquacious butts to get the damn fire lit. The scenario's laughable, heart wrenching and pitiful. Why, so often, does random chat trump decisive action?
OK, I get it. You reckon people with different beliefs from you are "intellectually stymied", and that you yourself are not "intellectually stymied".
Have assertions about you being right and other people wrong - wrapped up in analogies like this - ever actually worked for you on people you know in real life?
Do analogies like this work on you?
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAnd you reckon this "Amended Sentence" has made your analogy any better than it was?
"... while none [but a few whose conversational initiatives are lost amid the glare of the grease paint and roar of the crowd]
have the motivation or will to get up off their loquacious butts to get the damn fire lit." (Footnote: Amended Sentence)
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Originally posted by twhiteheadNote: Requires inner calm born of tranquility and contentment of soul in order to sustain the leadership quality of grace
And your the guy sitting in the corner freezing to death, but so far gone into your delusions brought on by the cold that you are dreaming of a nice warm fire and hot soup.
I find it interesting that you keep hinting about some secret happiness that you have found, but the moment anyone asks you about it you either keep quiet or get all vague. Its as if y ...[text shortened]... e else who doesn't know it, and you keep dropping little hints to make yourself feel really clever.
under pressure return to fire in the heat of battle when outnumbered. ("Amy's Organic Tomato Soup", one of my faves)
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderI did answer it in response to you or someone else...go back a couple pages...
That's fine.
But you did not provide a response to my point as to why it is fair or just for a person who is brought up and remains, say, a Hindu in good faith all their lives to be tossed into a Lake of Fire.
Unless you can, then your belief appears to present your God as random, cruel and barbaric. (Note: I did not say that your God is random, cruel and barbaric, just the way you have presented it so far.)
I will not package God in a box. I am simply stating what I have read and studied for the last 40 or so years. I have learned new things and had to adjust from time to time. I do know this...God is Love, He is merciful, but He does demand Justice. The gray area is what you just mentioned, someone who has never heard the Teachings of Jesus or the bible, period.
This is where I resort to the fact that God is Just and Merciful. He is all wise and I trust he will do what is right.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterNo, I think you are missing the point of what I said. I am not talking about someone who has 'never heard the Teachings of Jesus or the bible, period.'
I did answer it in response to you or someone else...go back a couple pages...
I will not package God in a box. I am simply stating what I have read and studied for the last 40 or so years. I have learned new things and had to adjust from time to time. I do know this...God is Love, He is merciful, but He does demand Justice. The gray area is what you ...[text shortened]... to the fact that God is Just and Merciful. He is all wise and I trust he will do what is right.
Plently of Hindus living in this country have heard the teachings of Jesus, but remain Hindus in good faith.
I still don't see why they should be tossed into a Lake of Fire. I don't see why any concept of justice demands this. And this doesn't sound like any sense of love or mercy that am I familiar with.
And neither, I suggest, would you think this in any earthly context.
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Originally posted by FMF"... has made your analogy any better than it was?"
And you reckon this "Amended Sentence" has made your analogy any better than it was?
Reiniscent of William Clinton's, "Depends on what your definition of is is" along
with some other flotsam that flowed from that oval mouth while Prez.
P.S. "... than it was?" = hanging [not chad, but] prep-like intransitive verb 'to be'.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI hear wild mutterings from the guy in the corner as I finally get as spark from my iron and flint. Luckily I read up on my survival skills before going into the snowy mountains whereas that poor guy in the corner prayed for a week prior to the journey.
Note: Requires inner calm born of tranquility and contentment of soul in order to sustain the leadership quality of grace
under pressure return to fire in the heat of battle when outnumbered. ("Amy's Organic Tomato Soup", one of my faves)
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Originally posted by twhiteheadSounds like a fantastic story line for the impoverished GF (I'll help by carefully placing a few dry logs on your fire).
I hear wild mutterings from the guy in the corner as I finally get as spark from my iron and flint. Luckily I read up on my survival skills before going into the snowy mountains whereas that poor guy in the corner prayed for a week prior to the journey.
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderI believe he fully agrees with you that he too doesn't see why any concept of justice demands it, instead, his belief that God is good and just is enough for him to have faith that it is just whether he can understand it or not.
I still don't see why they should be tossed into a Lake of Fire. I don't see why any concept of justice demands this. And this doesn't sound like any sense of love or mercy that am I familiar with.
And neither, I suggest, would you think this in any earthly context.
This is a perfectly reasonable position, on condition that he accepts that his belief is not based on an evaluation of the evidence - because in this instance evidence is being dismissed in favour of belief.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadIf checkbaiter is saying 'yes, it does appear random, barbaric and cruel to toss people into a Lake of Fire simply because they were born a Hindu and remained a Hindu, but nonetheless I am content to trust in God's love and judgment' then so be it.
I believe he fully agrees with you that he too doesn't see why any concept of justice demands it, instead, his belief that God is good and just is enough for him to have faith that it is just whether he can understand it or not.
This is a perfectly reasonable position, on condition that he accepts that his belief is not based on an evaluation of the evidence - because in this instance evidence is being dismissed in favour of belief.
But that does rather beg the question, how do you determine the difference between a supernatural 'bad' being (a devil) and a supernatural 'good' being (a god).
It seems to me that any devil worth his salt might well pretend to be righteous in many other ways to lure you in. The only way to spot this would be to look for signs of evil intent and actions. If you simply let things, that look on the surface as if they are evil, go unchallenged, how would you ever be able to spot the difference between the sophisticated imposter and the real deal?
Originally posted by Rank outsiderYou won't find too many Christians willing to say that in so many words, because you never know, God might mishear them and punish them for it.
If checkbaiter is saying 'yes, it does appear random, barbaric and cruel to toss people into a Lake of Fire simply because they were born a Hindu and remained a Hindu, but nonetheless I am content to trust in God's love and judgment' then so be it.
But that does rather beg the question, how do you determine the difference between a supernatural 'bad' being (a devil) and a supernatural 'good' being (a god).
Faith of course. So yes, you do get back to the question of whether it is fair for someone who does not have faith to be punished. But thats already solved by having faith that it must be fair because God is Just. (note the capitalization of Just, because it means Justice is defined as 'whatever God does, whether or not it jibes with our personal sense of justice).
It seems to me that any devil worth his salt might well pretend to be righteous in many other ways to lure you in. The only way to spot this would be to look for signs of evil intent and actions. If you simply let things, that look on the surface as if they are evil, go unchallenged, how would you ever be able to spot the difference between the sophisticated imposter and the real deal?
That problem would exist even if God appeared to be fair, just, good kind etc. One can never rule out the Matrix.