Free Will?

Originally posted by whodey
Man chose to fall. After the fall, man did not chose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him. By all rights God had the right to do away with mankind altogether for their mutiny but chose to show us mercy instead. The crux of the situation is that sin can be defined as anything contrary to the word/will of God. Also keep in mind that his will is corrosive and harmful entity that it is. He wants it gone and provided his Son to do the job.

God: "I am the all knowing all powerful god muhahaha!!! and I want to eradicate all sin from the planet my humans call Earth...now what shall I do hmmmm...."

Satan (whisper) "oh no! god is figuring out a way to get rid of sin...noooooo!!!!"(sob)

God"I HAVE IT!!! I shall have someone the humans call Jesus..My son no less, nailed to a cross!!! Goddamnit I'm so clever muhahaha"

Jesus (shriek) "wtf????"

Why won't some of you just stop and really *think* about what it is you are actually buying into!!?

Originally posted by Agerg
Hmm...your nice, your loving, your (not quite so) all knowing god!

Tell me KM, did those Jews deserve what they got then??? do all people that die horiffic deaths at the hands of another human just to satisfy their own twisted lust for inflicting pain and anguish on their victims, families, peers and associates deserve what they got too?

Even if we go al ...[text shortened]... and then pay for his upkeep in the finest hospital known to man whilst expecting his adoration.

He intervened alright , just not in the way you think or would expect. By entering into the suffering of man through Christ he redeems the world from suffering (not yet though) . In due course the tables will be turned and justice served. Your position does not take into account that in Christianity death is not the end. Where are those Jews now and where is Hitler is a question you do not ask. At the end of the world all wrongs will be righted and all wounds will be healed. God has to decide where he intervenes and where he doesn't , unless you would prefer him to end the world now and put an end to all suffering? Maybe you would like him to take away all human free will , that way he could guarantee no deaths at the hands of other humans? But would that not mean the end of love? How can a robot love?

Now this is a very unpalatable argument and I would understand if you found it offensive. I am not belittling human suffering but simply saying that if God did not have the balls to enter into death and suffering in person then none of what I am saying could be taken seriously. But he did. There are no easy answers. St Paul points out that whatever suffering we go through in this life is nothing compared to the joys of the next. I realise that's easy for me to say and I would be lying if I said that I didn't struggle with it but what is significant for me is that the central symbol God chose for us to focus on was God himself on a cross suffering in agony and shame at the hands of other human beings. It's one of the big reasons I could only ever be a Christian . No other religion has this , only in Christianity does God get his hands dirty.

Originally posted by knightmeister
He intervened alright , just not in the way you think or would expect. By entering into the suffering of man through Christ he redeems the world from suffering (not yet though) . In due course the tables will be turned and justice served. Your position does not take into account that in Christianity death is not the end. Where are those Jews now and wh ...[text shortened]... Christian . No other religion has this , only in Christianity does God get his hands dirty.

Why should your 3 O God get any kudos for "having the balls" to do the same thing EVERY human does?

Your last sentence is A) Untrue and B) Stupid.

Originally posted by knightmeister
At the end of the world all wrongs will be righted and all wounds will be healed.

The 2004 Tsunami, for example. Could you explain in some detail how you expect God to go about righting the wrongs, healing the wounds? Like, what do you mean?

EDIT: Please, no gibberish regarding free will. This is a natural evil.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Where are those Jews now and where is Hitler is a question you do not ask.

Where are they?

Originally posted by LemonJello
The 2004 Tsunami, for example. Could you explain in some detail how you expect God to go about righting the wrongs, healing the wounds? Like, what do you mean?

EDIT: Please, no gibberish regarding free will. This is a natural evil.

Free milk and cookies for everyone who watched their family drown.

Originally posted by LemonJello
The 2004 Tsunami, for example. Could you explain in some detail how you expect God to go about righting the wrongs, healing the wounds? Like, what do you mean?

EDIT: Please, no gibberish regarding free will. This is a natural evil.

Let's say you have just died in a tsunami and you are now with God in eternity experiencing a joy and fulfillment beyond imagination.... are you going to think " bummer , what a bad deal this is"

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why should your 3 O God get any kudos for "having the balls" to do the same thing EVERY human does?

Your last sentence is A) Untrue and B) Stupid.

Why should your 3 O God get any kudos for "having the balls" to do the same thing EVERY human does?

Is everyone crucified? I missed that bit on the news...

I know one thing ...if he hadn't done what he had done you would be one of the first to say " What does your god know about suffering , all stuck up there in heaven , he should try coming down here and be a human for a change and see how he likes it , at least then he might be worthy of some respect! Pah! Your god has no idea , he's asks us
to deal with suffering and death but he hasn't even tasted it himself. Hypocrite god!"

Originally posted by knightmeister
1) so god was surprised by this?

I'm not sure , he might have guessed that humanity would be capable of such things but , yes , I do think he is able to be surprised.

2) if god didn't know this would happen, did he learn it?

The phrase "knew it would happen" places God on your timeline and as such is misleading. He watched it happen from th ...[text shortened]... hen he has to be able to be surprised to a certain extent otherwise it's not free will.

i don't fully understand what you're saying. god is outside of time and yet he must wait till tomorrow to know what will happen... i thought that's what i had to do.

how could he send jesus on the off chance that he'd piss enough people off to kill him?
jesus is called god's plan for salvation, but how can a god who ingnorant of the future make any plans at all, especially one so important?

also, was all the prophesy stuff just a guess that god was hoping would work out as long as the humans played along?

Originally posted by Big Mac
i don't fully understand what you're saying. god is outside of time and yet he must wait till tomorrow to know what will happen... i thought that's what i had to do.

how could he send jesus on the off chance that he'd piss enough people off to kill him?
jesus is called god's plan for salvation, but how can a god who ingnorant of the future make any plans ...[text shortened]... y stuff just a guess that god was hoping would work out as long as the humans played along?

Nah, its called Knightmeister not having a scooby-doo about time as a dimension of the universe.

Deliberate obfuscation on his part.

so...
before god invented free will, was he omniscient?

was his omniscience another casualty of the fall?

could those in heaven freely will to sin again and cause a fall on a more metaphysical level?

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]God: "I am the all knowing all powerful god muhahaha!!! and I want to eradicate all sin from the planet my humans call Earth...now what shall I do hmmmm...."

Satan (whisper) "oh no! god is figuring out a way to get rid of sin...noooooo!!!!"(sob)

God"I HAVE IT!!! I shall have someone the humans call Jesus..My son no less e of you just stop and really *think* about what it is you are actually buying into!!?[/b]

I would like to tell you of a story about a boy who built a toy sail boat. He would often go to a local pond and sail the boat for hours and hours simply for pure enjoyment of it. He would often wrap his arms around the boat and say to the boat, "You are mine, all mine." However, one day his boat went to the other side of the pond and he lost sight of it. Sitting on the other side of the pond was another boy who saw the boat and coveted the boat and snatched it up and ran away. The boy then ran to the other side of the pond but he could not find his boat anywhere. Afterwards the boy cried and cried and could not be comforted, however, he was determained to find his boat once again. Then one day he was walking down the street and by chance he saw the same boat he built in the window of a local merchant. Leaping for joy the boy ran into the store and told the merchant that this was the same boat that he built and was taken from him. The merchant responded that he felt bad for the boy but that he had purchased the boat from someone else and would be out the money if he gave the boy back the boat that rightfully belonged to him. Then after much consideration the merchant told the boy that he would sell the boat back to him for the exact price for which he paid to buy the boat in order to sell the boat for a profit. Over joyed the boy reached down into his pockets and pulled out all the money in the world he had in order to purchase the boat. The boy then wraped his arms around the boat and said to the boat, "Now you are doubly mine because I both made you and I purchased you back after you were taken from me."

Originally posted by whodey
I would like to tell you of a story about a boy who built a toy sail boat. He would often go to a local pond and sail the boat for hours and hours simply for pure enjoyment of it. He would often wrap his arms around the boat and say to the boat, "You are mine, all mine." However, one day his boat went to the other side of the pond and he lost sight of it. ...[text shortened]... doubly mine because I both made you and I purchased you back after you were taken from me."

god is the crying boy who didn't know what happened right?

this doesn't exactly make god look too great. it kind of makes him look like well... a crying boy who didn't know what happened to his toys.

i know this isn't what you're trying to communicate, but i hope you can see how one would reach this conclusion from this story.

Originally posted by Big Mac
god is the crying boy who didn't know what happened right?

this doesn't exactly make god look too great. it kind of makes him look like well... a crying boy who didn't know what happened to his toys.

i know this isn't what you're trying to communicate, but i hope you can see how one would reach this conclusion from this story.

I assumed that the "naysayers" would probably only come away with this message, however, I took the chance that they might come away with a little more from the story.

Originally posted by whodey
I assumed that the "naysayers" would probably only come away with this message, however, I took the chance that they might come away with a little more from the story.

ok. so the boy (leaving out all the decriptors) represents god.
1) is the other boy satan? the world? the "flesh?"

2) did the boy make all the boats on the pond?

3) were all the boats stolen?

4) did he buy back all the boats?

5) if not why did he love and buy back this one?

6) if he did buy all the boats back, does this mean that god has bought back everybody?

7) if this is so, then all are redeemed, and therefore free will has no place.