If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?

i would say, because of my beliefs, that god is not some exterior thing. not something that controls us. instead, we are "gods couched in creaturehood." we create our universe and reality with our conscious energy, individually and en masse. this belief is well suited to the truth that is free will.

Originally posted by Big Mac
i appreciate what you're saying about god being the best, and so the best he could give would be himself. logically, that makes sense to me. many may not agree that god is the best thing ever, but if he is, then to give the best thing ever would have to be giving god himself. ok.

"It is also the only religion that I know of that is not focused on work rel an action?

also, how do you deal with the "author and perfector of our faith" passage?

As far as "works" saving you, there are no set number of works that will save you. The Christian theology teaches that we are saved by grace and that it is a gift from God least any man should boast. So if you arrive in heaven Mother Theresa cannot be sitting there boasting about how she earned her way into heaven, rather, the glory belongs to the Lamb who was sacrificed for our sins and if had not been for him Mother Theresa would not have arrived. In other words, the glory belongs to God and God alone. As far as other religions go, however, it seems that when you die God places you on a balance of some kind and weighs your good works against your bad works and you only hope that your good works outwiegh you bad works.

Now in terms of doing good works the Bible teaches that you will know a follower of Christ by the "fruits of the Spirit" which can be found in Galations chapter 5. It is here that we see that the evidence that we are saved are your outward actions rather than a set number of actions needed to be saved. Take the two theives on the cross who died next to Jesus, for example. They were both rightly condemned to die for their actions yet one reached out to Christ in faith as where the other cursed him and said, "If you be the Son of God get us the **** off the cross" Jesus turned to the one who reached out to him in faith and told him that he would be with him in paradise this very hour as where the other perished. So don't let anyone tell you that good works save you. It is not works, rather, it is simply reaching out to God in faith and recieving his gift of salvation via the Lamb of God. Had the theif who accepted Christ's invititation for salvation actually lived after his conversion I have no doubt that his life would have reflected this choice which would have been evidence for his conversion. However, lucky for us, however, God needs no evidence because he knows our hearts. The evdence is mainly needed for other people who cannot peer through anothers heart like God can.

You are right that choosing God is an action. After all, there must be an outward showing that your will to be saved is in line with his will to save you just like the theif on the cross. So in this respect an action of some kind is needed for salvation. After all, God would be violating your free will otherwise.

As far as God being the author and perfector of our faith, I assume you are referring to Hebrews 12:2. So God must be the author of our faith, otherwise we are not placing our faith in him, rather, it someone or something else would be the author and subsequently they would be the one we are placing our faith in rather than God. As far as Christ being the perfector of our faith, it is through our faith in him in which salvation has come to man. So for me, that is pretty much perfecting my hope and faith in God for saving me. However, before Christ came into the world, men did not know of his saving power. They simply relied on what God told them to do, even though they would ultimatly be saved via the cross. So for them, their faith had not yet been perfected in that sense.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Let's say you have just died in a tsunami and you are now with God in eternity experiencing a joy and fulfillment beyond imagination.... are you going to think " bummer , what a bad deal this is"

Let's say you have just died in a tsunami and you are now with God in eternity experiencing a joy and fulfillment beyond imagination....

Let's not, on the following grounds. For one, you treat the concept of *I* as something permanent and immune to death (as permanent cessation of consciousness) even though the evidence that bears on this matter is, if anything, countervailing. For two, I'm well aware of your notion of eternal existence as atemporal and yet at the same time having everything be present; and your notion is not even coherent in and of itself, let alone compatible with agency; so, the idea that *I* would be kickin' it with God eternally is incoherent.

The tsunami I mentioned before killed thousands upon thousands of people, destroyed families and villages, caused widespread pain and suffering for the ones lucky enough to survive it. Now go ahead and explain: how is God going to go about righting the wrongs, healing the wounds?

Originally posted by whodey
Well if our God is the best of the best then he gave us his best. If, however, God is not the best to offer us then he would not be God. It is the only religion that I know of where God physically reaches out to his creation verses sitting there waiting for us to do something for him. It is also the only religion that I know of that is not focused on work t is said to be our sacrificial Lamb which s simply a continuation or perfection of this theme.

Well if our God is the best of the best then he gave us his best. If, however, God is not the best to offer us then he would not be God.

The methods and choices made by your deity or any other deity thus far defined certainly don't imply best of the best, therefore by your own admission...not gods!

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Well if our God is the best of the best then he gave us his best. If, however, God is not the best to offer us then he would not be God.

The methods and choices made by your deity or any other deity thus far defined certainly don't imply best of the best, therefore by your own admission...not gods![/b]

I am not sure I follow. So you are saying that the methods and choices God has made are not best of the best even though he sent his best to die for us? Is this what you are saying?

Originally posted by whodey
I am not sure I follow. So you are saying that the methods and choices God has made are not best of the best even though he sent his best to die for us? Is this what you are saying?

Basically my position is this: I cannot find a shred of credibility in any of the religions or deities defined thus far...I have no reason or desire to believe in any form of deity at all and even if there was such an entity I hold that there is no justification for assuming:
a) That such an entity would really focus its attention on just one of the vast number of creatures that exist on one of the perhaps millions of planets in the universe capable of supporting life
b) That this entity is omnipotent (ie: can do anything)
c) That there is an afterlife for *any* of such creatures that it would create.
d) that we could possibly define or understand it

Originally posted by Big Mac
"one of you will betray me." JESUS IN G. OF JOHN

how could he know this?
even more...
how could he know it would specifically judas?

and to get back to the free will point of the thread... did judas have a choice? could judas have screwed up the whole salvation thing for all of us?

and to get back to the free will point of the thread... did judas have a choice? could judas have screwed up the whole salvation thing for all of us?[/b] Big Mac

I think God would have found some other way of doing it. I can't say what choice Judas had. He may have been enslaved by his greed for money and so was determined to act in this way. God knowing this may have made use of judas's intentions to further his plans. God would also have known Judas's heart so he could have used Judas in this way.

Just becasue God CAN be surprised does not mean that he always is. Jesus would have known because his father would have informed him.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Let's say you have just died in a tsunami and you are now with God in eternity experiencing a joy and fulfillment beyond imagination....

Let's not, on the following grounds. For one, you treat the concept of *I* as something permanent and immune to death (as permanent cessation of consciousness) even though the evidence that bears on this matte go ahead and explain: how is God going to go about righting the wrongs, healing the wounds?[/b]

Let's not, on the following grounds. lemon


Whooah! you can't do that ! If you make a counter claim about Christian belief then you can't just take half of it out willy nilly!! That's the equivalent of starting a game of chess and then taking my queen off the board ad hoc. If you are arguing against Christian belief then you need to argue against all of it and that includes an afterlife and the redemption of the world in Christ Jesus, nothing less nothing more. If you take the ressurection of Christ from suffering and death out of the equation then of course it all becomes nonsense. Even St Paul admitted that. If you want to argue against a Christianity that nobody I know of actually believes in then fine.

You may not believe in an afterlife , but if you argue that belief in God against a background of suffering is nonsense then you need to include the things that said belief implies (= afterlife)

Originally posted by knightmeister
and to get back to the free will point of the thread... did judas have a choice? could judas have screwed up the whole salvation thing for all of us? Big Mac

I think God would have found some other way of doing it. I can't say what choice Judas had. He may have been enslaved by his greed for money and so was determined to act in this way. God k ...[text shortened]... ot mean that he always is. Jesus would have known because his father would have informed him.[/b]

So 3 O God made himself able to be surprised? For what? S**ts and giggles?

Originally posted by no1marauder
So 3 O God made himself able to be surprised? For what? S**ts and giggles?

No , not at all. Being able to be surprised is a direct consequence of creating real free will. If you made a robot and you claimed you had given it free will and then said that you could predict all it's actions I would be inclined to be suspicious about your claim.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No , not at all. Being able to be surprised is a direct consequence of creating real free will. If you made a robot and you claimed you had given it free will and then said that you could predict all it's actions I would be inclined to be suspicious about your claim.

If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O. All you've done is replace one logical impossibility with another.

EDIT: Perhaps you can give a Scriptural reference where it says God can be surprised about what actions Man (or any man) can take.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O. All you've done is replace one logical impossibility with another.

EDIT: Perhaps you can give a Scriptural reference where it says God can be surprised about what actions Man (or any man) can take.

Perhaps you can give a Scriptural reference where it says God can be surprised about what actions Man (or any man) can take.

jesus and the centurion's faith , jesus is amazed by the centurion's faith

Originally posted by no1marauder
If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O. All you've done is replace one logical impossibility with another.

EDIT: Perhaps you can give a Scriptural reference where it says God can be surprised about what actions Man (or any man) can take.

If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O marauder

Yes , you are right , in the instances when this happens God is not omniscient. In one real sense he cannot predict what you will do tomorrow but in another real sense he is watching you in tomorrow right now. He knows whether you are going to choose him or not and has known this from since you were born and probably before. How does he know ? Because you either do choose him or you don't . Either way he knows , NOT because it's determined or fated BUT because of what you did.

What's so hard for us to grasp is that he can be in our past , future , and present simultaneously. Therefore , prediction and fate are not necessary to know the future because for him it's not the future , it's already happened.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O marauder

Yes , you are right , in the instances when this happens God is not omniscient. In one real sense he cannot predict what you will do tomorrow but in another real sense he is watching you in tomorrow right now. He knows whether you are going to choose him or not and has known this from since you were b ...[text shortened]... necessary to know the future because for him it's not the future , it's already happened.

What a load of waffle.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What a load of waffle.

I've been stopped , argh , devasting argument once again! I'm floored by your one liners.