Free Will?

while the holacaust is tragic, and i don't want to diminish the atrocity of it and what Hitler, and those who blindly followed him, did, i am still interested in hearing a "free will christian" "defend" his position. while this is a fine example, it's a little charged for this debate. i fear that it would obscure the focus of my questions. in fact, having read the bible a little myself, i'd like the "free will christian" (FWC) to defend it from the bible if possible.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]How would he do that?

This statement suggests that the idea that God could not have known the abominations that would take place as a result of his creation, the anguish, torment, and pain he would inflict on these blessed creatures of God...is a silly idea

Therefore your god is twisted![/b]

You read a lot into a small sentence. God did not predict what Hitler did , he saw it after the event just like you have done , but then unlike you he can exist outside of time. However , God would have known that abominations could not be ruled out. The only thing that can be said is that whatever anguish and pain was suffered will be counterbalanced by joy a trillion fold once the world is redeemed. It's a hard thing to swallow I know but Christianity is not going to sweeten the pill. It's central symbol is that of God hanging in anguish and pain.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well you say this god of yours isn't bound by time...I say that midjagends aren't bound by time neither...I'm working on a proof of this statement!!!

Your all knowing God would know what choices Hitler would make! Your god knew that a shed-load of Jews were going to suffer (or did suffer as you hold that God is external to time and stuff) because of that fi ...[text shortened]... hat have been defined to you and others via religion to be completely and totally ridiculous.

but some poor dude back in antiquity who got nailed to a cross is the reason why he had the chance of an equal share of paradise as the people who died horrifically painful deaths because of him?

What was in it for the jews? AGERG

A share of paradise. This is the whole point. It makes no sense. God's forgiveness IS an absolute scandal to our worldy concepts of justice. Hitler has no right to paradise. He does not deserve it. But God offers it anyway out of abundant love and compassion. None of us deserve it . We cannot earn it because compared to God's holiness we are as filthy as rags. This is where you know who comes in. Paradise is a gift accepted or declined.

By our standards it makes no sense , this is why Jesus told the story of the prodigal son and the talents.

Originally posted by knightmeister
but some poor dude back in antiquity who got nailed to a cross is the reason why he had the chance of an equal share of paradise as the people who died horrifically painful deaths because of him?

What was in it for the jews? AGERG

A share of paradise. This is the whole point. It makes no sense. God's forgiveness IS an absolute scandal to our wo ...[text shortened]... ards it makes no sense , this is why Jesus told the story of the prodigal son and the talents.

What story of the prodigal son and the talents? You are confusing two different parables.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You read a lot into a small sentence. God did not predict what Hitler did , he saw it after the event just like you have done , but then unlike you he can exist outside of time. However , God would have known that abominations could not be ruled out. The only thing that can be said is that whatever anguish and pain was suffered will be counterbalanced ...[text shortened]... ot going to sweeten the pill. It's central symbol is that of God hanging in anguish and pain.

1) so god was surprised by this?

2) if god didn't know this would happen, did he learn it?

3) if god learned something, does that mean that there is more stuff he doesn't know?

4) if there is stuff he doesn't know, would that not negate the doctrinal stance of god as omniscient?

Originally posted by Big Mac
So many of you talk of our free will. Most of those whom I've noticing doing this are those claiming to be Christian.
Age old question...
If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?
a.k.a.
How can one reconcile the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility?

Do you think you have free will? If you answer yes, then why try to reconcile that with a "omni-everything" God. We are not "omni-everything", so how can we know the how or why of it? But, it is a fundamental biblical principal that we are free moral agents created in the image and likeness of God.

If you answer "no, I don't have free will", then I don't know what to tell you!

Originally posted by Big Mac
So many of you talk of our free will. Most of those whom I've noticing doing this are those claiming to be Christian.
Age old question...
If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?
a.k.a.
How can one reconcile the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility?

Ecclesiastes 6:10-12 NLT
The Future—Determined and Unknown
10 Everything has already been decided. It was known long ago what each person would be. So there’s no use arguing with God about your destiny.
11 The more words you speak, the less they mean. So what good are they?
12 In the few days of our meaningless lives, who knows how our days can best be spent? Our lives are like a shadow. Who can tell what will happen on this earth after we are gone?

Jeremiah 18:6 NLT
At the Potter's House
6 “O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand.

Romans 9:19-24 NLT
God's Sovereign Choice
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

Originally posted by josephw
Do you think you have free will? If you answer yes, then why try to reconcile that with a "omni-everything" God. We are not "omni-everything", so how can we know the how or why of it? But, it is a fundamental biblical principal that we are free moral agents created in the image and likeness of God.

If you answer "no, I don't have free will", then I don't know what to tell you!

I don't. but, you do. you mention that it is "a fundamental biblical principal that we are free moral agents created in the image of God." so the image of god equals free will?
was the image of god destroyed in man at the fall?
if yes, how can the "lost" man have the free will to choose to be "saved?"
if no, what was "lost" at the fall?

Originally posted by Big Mac
I don't. but, you do. you mention that it is "a fundamental biblical principal that we are free moral agents created in the image of God." so the image of god equals free will?
was the image of god destroyed in man at the fall?
if yes, how can the "lost" man have the free will to choose to be "saved?"
if no, what was "lost" at the fall?

Man chose to fall. After the fall, man did not chose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him. By all rights God had the right to do away with mankind altogether for their mutiny but chose to show us mercy instead. The crux of the situation is that sin can be defined as anything contrary to the word/will of God. Also keep in mind that his will is perfect and is what is best for his creation. Therefore, if God were to endorse or be apart of "sin" then he would not be a loving God because he would not be doing what is best for his creation. Fortunatly for us, however, God is said to be a God of love and as a result will not tolerate sin in our lives. That is only if sin is viewed as being the corrosive and harmful entity that it is. He wants it gone and provided his Son to do the job.

Originally posted by whodey
Man chose to fall. After the fall, man did not chose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him. By all rights God had the right to do away with mankind altogether for their mutiny but chose to show us mercy instead. The crux of the situation is that sin can be defined as anything contrary to the word/will of God. Also keep in mind that his will is ...[text shortened]... corrosive and harmful entity that it is. He wants it gone and provided his Son to do the job.

How merciful was god when he drowned almost the entire population of the earth during the great flood? Or when he slew all the firstborn of Egypt? Or when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Such levels of mercy have only been equaled by the likes of Hitler and Stalin.

Originally posted by whodey
Man chose to fall. After the fall, man did not chose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him. By all rights God had the right to do away with mankind altogether for their mutiny but chose to show us mercy instead. The crux of the situation is that sin can be defined as anything contrary to the word/will of God. Also keep in mind that his will is ...[text shortened]... corrosive and harmful entity that it is. He wants it gone and provided his Son to do the job.

"After the fall, man did not choose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him." WHODEY

so man has no way of choosing to be saved?
i though free will meant that man could choose to be saved.
it usually phrased like, "man must accept salvation."
that sounds like a choice to me.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You read a lot into a small sentence. God did not predict what Hitler did , he saw it after the event just like you have done , but then unlike you he can exist outside of time. However , God would have known that abominations could not be ruled out. The only thing that can be said is that whatever anguish and pain was suffered will be counterbalanced ot going to sweeten the pill. It's central symbol is that of God hanging in anguish and pain.

Hmm...your nice, your loving, your (not quite so) all knowing god!

Tell me KM, did those Jews deserve what they got then??? do all people that die horiffic deaths at the hands of another human just to satisfy their own twisted lust for inflicting pain and anguish on their victims, families, peers and associates deserve what they got too?

Even if we go along with your statement that god did not predict what hitler did (despite existing outside time and stuff!) (what else can your omnipotent god not predict?) does your god lack the ability to put 2 and 2 together faster than we humans can put 2 and 2 together such that he would have stopped any of such attrocities that have taken place in history? (many humans knew what hitler and others were up to long before they were in full swing)

your god seems a bit like a psychotic billionaire who would watch and pay someone else to gouge out the eyes, pull off the limbs, rip off the ears of a tramp and then pay for his upkeep in the finest hospital known to man whilst expecting his adoration.

Originally posted by Big Mac
1) so god was surprised by this?

2) if god didn't know this would happen, did he learn it?

3) if god learned something, does that mean that there is more stuff he doesn't know?

4) if there is stuff he doesn't know, would that not negate the doctrinal stance of god as omniscient?

1) so god was surprised by this?

I'm not sure , he might have guessed that humanity would be capable of such things but , yes , I do think he is able to be surprised.

2) if god didn't know this would happen, did he learn it?

The phrase "knew it would happen" places God on your timeline and as such is misleading. He watched it happen from the viewpoint of eternity. In one sense he both knew it would happen but also didn't simultaneously

3) if god learned something, does that mean that there is more stuff he doesn't know?

Right now he doesn't know what you will do tomorrow but then again he is in tomorrow right now as well watching you do it.

4) if there is stuff he doesn't know, would that not negate the doctrinal stance of god as omniscient?

Not if not knowing was the consequence of a deliberate choice on his part. If he creates true free will then he has to be able to be surprised to a certain extent otherwise it's not free will.

Originally posted by whodey
Man chose to fall. After the fall, man did not chose to be saved, rather, salvation was offered to him. By all rights God had the right to do away with mankind altogether for their mutiny but chose to show us mercy instead. The crux of the situation is that sin can be defined as anything contrary to the word/will of God. Also keep in mind that his will is corrosive and harmful entity that it is. He wants it gone and provided his Son to do the job.

According to your fable, Man did not chose to fall; one man choose to. Punishment for all men thereafter is disproportionate and irrational. God has no right to punish people for something they didn't do at least if he has to follow any code of moral conduct at all. The rest of the post is a confusing, self-contradictory mishmash. And if a 3 O God really wanted sin to be gone, he wouldn't need to provide his Son to do the job.

Originally posted by knightmeister
1) so god was surprised by this?

I'm not sure , he might have guessed that humanity would be capable of such things but , yes , I do think he is able to be surprised.

2) if god didn't know this would happen, did he learn it?

The phrase "knew it would happen" places God on your timeline and as such is misleading. He watched it happen from th ...[text shortened]... hen he has to be able to be surprised to a certain extent otherwise it's not free will.

Right now he doesn't know what you will do tomorrow but then again he is in tomorrow right now as well watching you do it.

This is just a contradiction!!! it answers nothing.