17 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonhouseSonhouse, you remind me of Saul, before his name was changed.
You can't even see the whole idea of a god that requires love is clearly a man made attribute. You can spout all the so-called scripture all you want, it doesn't change the fact that your religion is the result of intelligent design. HUMAN intelligent design.
17 Oct 13
Originally posted by PenguinThe Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) was headed by nuclear physicist Tom D'Muhala. The other main scientific team members included the team organizer and physicist John P. Jackson, thermodynamicist Eric Jumper, thermal chemist Raymond N. Rogers, Roy London, Roger Morris, Don Lynn, biophysicist John Heller, photographers Vern Miller and Barrie Schwortz, optical physicist Sam Pellicori, electric power experts John D. German and Rudy Dichtl, and forensic pathologist Robert Bucklin. A complete list of the investigators can be found here:
What about the views of the scientists, the data collected and the conclusions of the studies made. Surely that would be at least as reliable as the opinion of of a single member of the team, probably the least qualified of the lot
The study he was involved in concluded that the piece analysed was from several hundred years after the death of Christ. It w ...[text shortened]... d the Vatican refuse this unless they were afraid it might turn out to be a fake?
--- Penguin
http://www.shroud.com/78exam.htm
Schwortz, Rogers, and Jackson have expressed their belief in the authenticity of the Shroud. Jackson even believes the image was formed by the resurrection.
The following was the conclusion of the team in 1981:
We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved.
http://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm
The Instructor
17 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsAlso, there was pollen found on the fibers of the shroud. A plant that only grows in the regin where Jesus was crucified
The Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) was headed by nuclear physicist Tom D'Muhala. The other main scientific team members included the team organizer and physicist John P. Jackson, thermodynamicist Eric Jumper, thermal chemist Raymond N. Rogers, Roy London, Roger Morris, Don Lynn, biophysicist John Heller, photographers Vern Miller and Barrie Schwor ...[text shortened]... he future, the problem remains unsolved.
http://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm
The Instructor
17 Oct 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadBarrie Schwortz is Jewish and accepts that this has to be the burial cloth of Jesus after eliminating all other reasonable possibilities. Although he believes Jesus was a real person, he does not believe he rose from the dead or that the image was due to resurrection as does Dr. Jackson. He seems content to just let the truth be known and let each person come to his own conclusion as to what it means.
Sorry, but if the image is supernatural then there is no way to use science to determine its origin as 'supernatural' basically means 'defying the laws of science'.
You must either claim it is supernatural and drop all claims that you have evidence that it is Jesus' burial cloth, or you must drop the claim that the supernatural is involved. You can't have both.
The Instructor
17 Oct 13
2 edits
VATICAN INSIDER Wednesday 16 October 2013
New scientific experiments carried out at the University of Padua have apparently confirmed that the Shroud of Turin can be dated back to the 1st century AD.
The new tests carried out in the University of Padua labs were carried out by a number of university professors from various Italian universities and agree that the Shroud dates back to the period when Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem. Final results show that the Shroud fibres examined produced the following dates, all of which are 95% certain and centuries away from the medieval dating obtained with Carbon-14 testing in 1988: the dates given to the Shroud after FT-IR testing, is 300 BC ±400, 200 BC ±500 after Raman testing and 400 AD ±400 after multi-parametric mechanical testing. The average of all three dates is 33 BC ±250 years. The book’s authors observed that the uncertainty of this date is less than the single uncertainties and the date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross, which historians claim occurred in 30 AD.
The tests were carried out using tiny fibres of material extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana who passed away in 2008 but had participated in the1988 research project and gave the material to Fanti through the cultural institute Fondazione 3M.
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sindone-23579/
The Instructor
17 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsThat's very interesting.
VATICAN INSIDER Wednesday 16 October 2013
New scientific experiments carried out at the University of Padua have apparently confirmed that the Shroud of Turin can be dated back to the 1st century AD.
The new tests carried out in the University of Padua labs were carried out by a number of university professors from various Italian universities and agre ...[text shortened]... insider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sindone-23579/
The Instructor
These results need to be put out for formal peer review and critical analysis. It is probably important enough to justify a second, independent set of tests to confirm them.
Then, once it has been confirmed that the cloth and image are indeed of the correct age, we need to see whether such an imprint can be explained through natural processes.
--- Penguin.
17 Oct 13
Originally posted by PenguinTo determine how the image or imprint was formed was the purpose of the STURP team. It has now been over 30 years and no method of producing the image or imprint through natural processes has been discovered. Even if it could that would not prove it was not the burial cloth of Jesus. As Barrie Schwortz has said it is a matter of faith as to what it means to each individual.
That's very interesting.
These results need to be put out for formal peer review and critical analysis. It is probably important enough to justify a second, independent set of tests to confirm them.
Then, once it has been confirmed that the cloth and image are indeed of the correct age, we need to see whether such an imprint can be explained through natural processes.
--- Penguin.
The Instructor
18 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsSo it has come down to the level of any other religious relic. Faith. I guess it is just stupid the real world wants scientific evidence.
To determine how the image or imprint was formed was the purpose of the STURP team. It has now been over 30 years and no method of producing the image or imprint through natural processes has been discovered. Even if it could that would not prove it was not the burial cloth of Jesus. As Barrie Schwortz has said it is a matter of faith as to what it means to each individual.
The Instructor
18 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonhouseThere is more scientific evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin than there is for the theory of evolution (evil-lution). Yet you have no problem believing that on faith.
So it has come down to the level of any other religious relic. Faith. I guess it is just stupid the real world wants scientific evidence.
The Instructor
18 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsThe 'faith' you speak of is only in your mind. I go with that attribute they call
There is more scientific evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin than there is for the theory of evolution (evil-lution). Yet you have no problem believing that on faith.
The Instructor
EVIDENCE. If you or anyone else can come up with a 200 million year old bunny fossil, then all bets are off. Till then, evolution rules.
It really is a pity how religion has deformed what is left of your brain.
18 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonhouseSince there is no fossil older than a few thousand years, you are asking for something that does not exist. That just shows how unreasonable your position is. Evolution (evil-lution) only rules in your mind. You should discard your pride and let the Lord rule.
The 'faith' you speak of is only in your mind. I go with that attribute they call
EVIDENCE. If you or anyone else can come up with a 200 million year old bunny fossil, then all bets are off. Till then, evolution rules.
It really is a pity how religion has deformed what is left of your brain.
The Instructor
19 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsIf your lord wants to rule, fine, I'm all ears to IT. Humans telling me to fall down on my knees and pray, forget it.
Since there is no fossil older than a few thousand years, you are asking for something that does not exist. That just shows how unreasonable your position is. Evolution (evil-lution) only rules in your mind. You should discard your pride and let the Lord rule.
The Instructor