From Math to God

@KellyJay said
Well that is who Jesus came to save, it for sinners not the righteous did He come. Remember that when you pray!

OK, but let's back up a bit and ask whether that selfsame God (in the guise of a different omniscient Person) might have knowingly played a cruel trick on Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden for the sake of laying the foundation for His whole redemption scheme?

Kind of sounds like a protection racket to me.

And it's not that I don't believe in some kind of omnisicient, omnipresent, creative Cosmic Intelligence -- it's just that the Christian faith of little old Earth doesn't make sense to me, and I'd prefer a more general religion or belief system that all intelligent beings throughout the Cosmos might agree upon.

E.g., were the philosopher mud-crabs of Ancient Mars' canal days doomed to Hell Eternal or some waterless Limbo just because they didn't worship the God of the Jews or believe that Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ?

On the other hand, similar to the Eight Limbs of Yoga, I would agree that maybe different forms of worship or at least practice are suitable for different kinds of people.

🎵"Something from nothing is something"🎵

(assuming there was ever nothing)

@Arkturos said
OK, but let's back up a bit and ask whether that selfsame God (in the guise of a different omniscient Person) might have knowingly played a cruel trick on Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden for the sake of laying the foundation for His whole redemption scheme?

Kind of sounds like a protection racket to me.

And it's not that I don't believe in some kind of omnisicient, ...[text shortened]... ent kinds of people.

🎵"Something from nothing is something"🎵

(assuming there was ever nothing)

You realize the one who is perfect in rightousness and goodness is the one you are casting doubt on His good name.

@KellyJay said
You realize the one who is perfect in rightousness and goodness is the one you are casting doubt on His good name.

You should have capitalized "One" and "Name" if that's what you have to say.

But what if the God of our Cosmos is not necessarily righteous or good and this is Its first time doing this kind of thing (splashing out a Cosmos)?

What if the God of our Cosmos is not so self-important as to require, expect, or demand fear and worship from us tiny sprouts, but could use a little sympathy, understanding, and forgiveness Itself?

If there's a song about "Sympathy for the Devil" why don't we have a song about "Sympathy for The God"?

@Arkturos said
You should have capitalized "One" and "Name" if that's what you have to say.

But what if the God of our Cosmos is not necessarily righteous or good and this is Its first time doing this kind of thing (splashing out a Cosmos)?

What if the God of our Cosmos is not so self-important as to require, expect, or demand fear and worship from us tiny sprouts, but could use a li ...[text shortened]... there's a song about "Sympathy for the Devil" why don't we have a song about "Sympathy for The God"?

Then there is no hope

@KellyJay said
Then there is no hope

Wrong. Optimism (even foolish optimism) is always better than pessimism every step of the way.

Edit: And how inconsiderate and uncaring of you regarding what might have been a first-attempt God!

Just because some humans seem to prefer a hierarchical order doesn't necessarily mean God Itself shares that preference.

@Arkturos said
Wrong. Optimism (even foolish optimism) is always better than pessimism every step of the way.

Edit: And how inconsiderate and uncaring of you regarding what might have been a first-attempt God!

Just because some humans seem to prefer a hierarchical order doesn't necessarily mean God Itself shares that preference.

Well I don’t care how optimistic you are, if your hopes are all based on shifting sand, nothing solid there, blind faith and wishful thinking based upon nothing will not carry you through the fiery trials in life.

I am telling about God who makes and keeps His promises that can not lie. One that cared for us so He became one of us, knowing what it was going to cost Him. He entered into humanity took all of our sin. guilt, and shame upon Himself and received from us mockery and crucifixion, from God the feather the wrath of God due to our guilt not His own was poured out on Him in full so we could be forgiven. The Righteous for sinners!

He gives me hope even in the darkest hours in this life, knowing He even defeated death.

@KellyJay said
Well I don’t care how optimistic you are, if your hopes are all based on shifting sand, nothing solid there, blind faith and wishful thinking based upon nothing will not carry you through the fiery trials in life.

I am telling about God who makes and keeps His promises that can not lie. One that cared for us so He became one of us, knowing what it was going to cost Him. ...[text shortened]... sinners!

He gives me hope even in the darkest hours in this life, knowing He even defeated death.

I really can't tell whether you are trolling or sincere.

RE: "One that cared for us so He became one of us, knowing what it was going to cost Him. He entered into humanity took all of our sin. guilt, and shame upon Himself [. . .]"

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! The poor, poor dear! Knowing what it was going to cost Him!

Never mind all the psychological and physical torture and torment that He knew was going to happen and must have intended to happen so that He could swoop in as the hero to save us all!

Just Who do you think invented all that sin, guilt, and shame? What happened in the Garden of Eden was just some story that some ancient Jews came up with.

When I left the Catholic Church as a teen, it was over Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin, and my observation that the Church was all about making people feel bad about themselves for the sake of controlling them.

Even though I did attempt to gain a better understanding of Christianity later, the older I got the more I found to reject.

As I mentioned a few years ago, I do understand the value and importance of some kind of sustaining faith for many of us when difficult times come, but for me the Christian religion and the underlying Judaic foundation have become as straw, even if there were ever any beneficial intentions involved.

Executive summary: The God of that mythological system was the Original Sinner if anyone was. Luckily, just as the map is not the territory, the myths of Earth are not The God (if any such God even exists).

Um, so, Happy Holidays anyway! 😉

@Arkturos said
I really can't tell whether you are trolling or sincere.

RE: "One that cared for us so He became one of us, knowing what it was going to cost Him. He entered into humanity took all of our sin. guilt, and shame upon Himself [. . .]"

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! The poor, poor dear! Knowing what it was going to cost Him!

Never mind all the psychological and physical torture and ...[text shortened]... e myths of Earth are not The God (if any such God even exists).

Um, so, Happy Holidays anyway! 😉

I'm not Catholic, don’t care for that church to tell you the truth. Yes, what God was going to take on to Himself was every crime, done by us, every heartbreak we had for the whole of the human race, one who never did anything wrong, for those who only did wrong. Something he did not have to do, but seeing our need, he took it on.

Do you have a way you’d like to promote how a universe of love could be created, forcing people to care so they could do no other, maybe?

@KellyJay said
I'm not Catholic, don’t care for that church to tell you the truth. Yes, what God was going to take on to Himself was every crime, done by us, every heartbreak we had for the whole of the human race, one who never did anything wrong, for those who only did wrong. Something he did not have to do, but seeing our need, he took it on.

Do you have a way you’d like to promote how a universe of love could be created, forcing people to care so they could do no other, maybe?

Coerced love isn't really love, though, is it?

Maybe this is Deist of me (and not that I get a vote re: whether God exists or not), but a God who splashed out or dreamed such a grand and coherent Cosmos only just to see how things go, without any attempts at manipulation or guilt-tripping of us tiny spirits is a concept of God I could accept.

It's really only some or most human concepts of God that I reject. (What a thing for anyone to write or to be able to write after all this time, in the grand scheme of things. 😉 )

@Arkturos said
Coerced love isn't really love, though, is it?

Maybe this is Deist of me (and not that I get a vote re: whether God exists or not), but a God who splashed out or dreamed such a grand and coherent Cosmos only just to see how things go, without any attempts at manipulation or guilt-tripping of us tiny spirits is a concept of God I could accept.

It's really only some or m ...[text shortened]... for anyone to write or to be able to write after all this time, in the grand scheme of things. 😉 )

You are not being guilt-tripped; you are guilty. We all are, but only those who acknowledge it will come; the rest couldn’t care less for several reasons.

@KellyJay said
You are not being guilt-tripped; you are guilty. We all are, but only those who acknowledge it will come; the rest couldn’t care less for several reasons.

Guilty of what? Guilty how? According to whom?

Now I think the balance has tipped toward your just being a troll, albeit a subtle one who has played a longer game than others.

You won't get any respect from me for that.

@Arkturos said
Guilty of what? Guilty how? According to whom?

Now I think the balance has tipped toward your just being a troll, albeit a subtle one who has played a longer game than others.

You won't get any respect from me for that.

Sins against love, according to you and God.

@KellyJay said
Sins against love, according to you and God.

You're coming across as a tool of The Accuser, Mister KellyJay.

@Arkturos said
You're coming across as a tool of The Accuser, Mister KellyJay.

I'm simply admitting we are all guilty.

@Arkturos said
You're coming across as a tool of The Accuser, Mister KellyJay.

Accepting scripture in its totality, you should realize that Satan does not care if you are a good moral person; the devil does not care if you are nice, he does not care if everyone loves you. It is our relationship with Jesus Christ, who he is, that Satan opposes!! Nothing we do or say, except when it comes to Jesus Christ, matters, because only Jesus Christ can save us from our sins; all the other things could blind us to our need before God because of our corruption.