1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    02 Mar '12 20:43
    Galatians 5:22-23
    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    I'm curious about what folks think about the fruits of the Spirit. I would assume that Atheists would not say they are fruits of the Spirit , but I would also wager that they would still say they are qualities we should all aspire to and try to cultivate within ourselves. Interestingly , we instinctively admire these qualities in people and people who have them are much happier than people who don't. People who don't have many of them or none of them seem lost or empty. People who have a lot of them in full measure tend to live abundant lives.

    PS- And yes I know that you will have met Christians who are bad adverts for God , but that's not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.
  2. Joined
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    02 Mar '12 21:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Galatians 5:22-23
    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    I'm curious about what folks think about the fruits of the Spirit. I would assume that Atheists would not say they are fruits of the Spirit , but I would also wager th ...[text shortened]... not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.
    How interesting. So people with joy in their lives are much happier than those without joy in their lives? Wow, amazing. Tell us more, great sage.
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    02 Mar '12 23:011 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    How interesting. So people with joy in their lives are much happier than those without joy in their lives? Wow, amazing. Tell us more, great sage.
    I don't know why you have to take this attitude when I'm starting a thread. You seem to not like me because I am confident in what I believe.

    And yet I have not said that I am better than anyone else , nor have I done any "hellfire and sinners" style preaching or spoken badly of others religion or homosexuality etc etc.

    You seem to have it in for me for some reason.

    Why don't you tell me what you think joy is or peace for example. It would be far more interesting don't you think?
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    02 Mar '12 23:09
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I don't know why you have to take this attitude when I'm starting a thread. You seem to not like me because I am confident in what I believe.

    And yet I have not said that I am better than anyone else , nor have I done any "hellfire and sinners" style preaching or spoken badly of others religion or homosexuality etc etc.

    You seem to have it in f ...[text shortened]... you think joy is or peace for example. It would be far more interesting don't you think?
    I get how the fruit of the Spirit comes from God, I wonder where the godless
    stand on how they came about?
    Kelly
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    02 Mar '12 23:20
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I don't know why you have to take this attitude when I'm starting a thread. You seem to not like me because I am confident in what I believe.

    And yet I have not said that I am better than anyone else , nor have I done any "hellfire and sinners" style preaching or spoken badly of others religion or homosexuality etc etc.

    You seem to have it in f ...[text shortened]... you think joy is or peace for example. It would be far more interesting don't you think?
    It's good to be confident bout what you believe. I dont think it's good to be confident about spiritual matters.
    It' can be a slippery slope to arrogance , wrong understanding, and lets face it, if you knew the truth then you would be able to tell it to the forum in a convincing way.
    Maybe not all would be convinced , but some definately would. Let's see how your thread pans out,eh? 🙂
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    02 Mar '12 23:25
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I get how the fruit of the Spirit comes from God, I wonder where the godless
    stand on how they came about?
    Kelly
    Some , like me, dont really care about such things. We are here. Period.

    We can toss balls back and forth all day and still be none the wiser.
    And remember, buddhists could be considered "godless" despite them being a very influencial and fast growing "religion" .hahhahaha. ( that laugh is just for other readers, maybe for you as well, but I suspect not)
    After all , imo, humour is an essential component of spirituality. Maybe not for all, but when your ego is faced with the prospect of being belittled by it's own defences , then it's almost essential to be able to laugh about it.
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    02 Mar '12 23:28
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Galatians 5:22-23
    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    I'm curious about what folks think about the fruits of the Spirit. I would assume that Atheists would not say they are fruits of the Spirit , but I would also wager th ...[text shortened]... not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.
    You're assuming a lot here. LJ is right in pointing it out/pulling you up for it. Thats the way I read it anyway.

    I think it has been said, many times now, that we shouldn't generalize about atheists.

    you know why, right?
  8. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    03 Mar '12 00:17
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I don't know why you have to take this attitude when I'm starting a thread. You seem to not like me because I am confident in what I believe.

    And yet I have not said that I am better than anyone else , nor have I done any "hellfire and sinners" style preaching or spoken badly of others religion or homosexuality etc etc.

    You seem to have it in f ...[text shortened]... you think joy is or peace for example. It would be far more interesting don't you think?
    It doesn't matter if you're confident in what you believe, just don't make stupid posts. This one should have been titled 'Fruit of the Loons.' (That's a little pun there, in case you missed it.)
  9. Joined
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    03 Mar '12 00:262 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Galatians 5:22-23
    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    I'm curious about what folks think about the fruits of the Spirit. I would assume that Atheists would not say they are fruits of the Spirit , but I would also wager th not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.
    Skip to the final paragraph below, if bored with text.

    I would like to know more about the passage, especially this more complete and revealing one:

    Galatians 5...

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Reportedly ( I will not cite referneces but will invite correction) this epistle was written to the early Galation Gentiles who were converting from paganism , not Judaism, and the purpose of the letter was to address Christian teachings in light of Jewish teachings that were at some odds or at least placed demands on new followers; demands that were not specifically part of Paul's message of Christ.

    The passage basically says to me that Christianity, while agreeing that certain acts are bad in the extreme, offers a more positive approach to the issue. The person who strives to be receptive to these positive attributes, will naturally turn away from the negatives, and this fact, says Paul, is a key feature of the Christian message.

    So my non-theistic view is that they are in fact, gifts available from Christianity if properly understood and followed.

    My question is this: are the gifts of a religion those that it promises, or are they the gifts that it delivers? After all, it is by their fruits-- their works -- that you will know them. It is not what they are given, it is what they do with it.

    Historically, have we seen a noticeable difference in the behavior (fruits) of Christians vs non-Christians in these respects, with less "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies," and more "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?"
  10. Joined
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    03 Mar '12 00:53
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I don't know why you have to take this attitude when I'm starting a thread. You seem to not like me because I am confident in what I believe.

    And yet I have not said that I am better than anyone else , nor have I done any "hellfire and sinners" style preaching or spoken badly of others religion or homosexuality etc etc.

    You seem to have it in f ...[text shortened]... you think joy is or peace for example. It would be far more interesting don't you think?
    Sorry I irritated you. I just thought it was funny that you find it interesting that persons with joy in their lives are happier than those without joy in their lives. I do not think you need to worry about others agreeing with this observation, since it reads as more or less analytically true.

    I'm afraid that I do not really understand what you are actually trying to say when you talk in such truisms. Yes, persons with joy and goodness in their lives will be happier and better off for it. This is not very contentious. Of course, we will disagree on a lot of other stuff, as you are already aware.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    03 Mar '12 01:09
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Some , like me, dont really care about such things. We are here. Period.

    We can toss balls back and forth all day and still be none the wiser.
    And remember, buddhists could be considered "godless" despite them being a very influencial and fast growing "religion" .hahhahaha. ( that laugh is just for other readers, maybe for you as well, but I suspec ...[text shortened]... belittled by it's own defences , then it's almost essential to be able to laugh about it.
    I do have a hard believing what you just said, not because I thnk you lie, but
    because you seem to have an opinion on matters that are only true depending
    on how everything came into being. Without some understanding on how it
    started it is difficult to know what is important and why, or how important
    everything we discuss really are.
    Kelly
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    03 Mar '12 02:26
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do have a hard believing what you just said, not because I thnk you lie, but
    because you seem to have an opinion on matters that are only true depending
    on how everything came into being. Without some understanding on how it
    started it is difficult to know what is important and why, or how important
    everything we discuss really are.
    Kelly
    You find it hard believing that .I reckon it doesn't really matter where we came from?

    The answer, if you want to find it , is long winded and complicated. But it can be found, however it raises more questions than it answers.

    In this case something like "god did it" is satisfactory for me, not that we have remotely similar views on what "God" is. But all that aside, why do you persist?
    You must have an agenda, and now you've got me curious as to what that agenda is. (If I am wrong here, please excuse me and let me know)
    however , if I am right please tell me what our agenda(s) is/are. That is, if you fell it noteworthy.
    It is for me anyway 🙂


    BTW , if I have missed some of your major points here then please let me know and tell me what they are. I am genuinely curious and not just here to set you up and take the piss
  13. Joined
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    03 Mar '12 02:576 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Galatians 5:22-23
    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    I'm curious about what folks think about the fruits of the Spirit. I would assume that Atheists would not say they are fruits of the Spirit , but I would also wager th not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.
    PS- And yes I know that you will have met Christians who are bad adverts for God , but that's not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.


    The "fruits of the Spirit" listed in Galatians 5:22-23:

    1.) Are only a sample list. We could not really say that these fruits of the indwelling Christ are limited to these. They are just a sample.

    2.) These fruits of the Spirit are ever deepening, ever growing, ever becoming stronger and stronger as the Christian grows in grace.

    I mean how much love is love?
    How much joy is joy?
    How much peace is peace.
    etc.

    One persecuted Christian was placed into a pit in the earth where God saw fit to allow him to stay for 15 years ! God did not deliver that man from that pit for 15 years. This follower of Jesus displayed a very great level of the fruit of the Spirit as forebearance, long-suffering, meekness, faithfulness, peace ...

    They could not BREAK him. And there is a town now in Europe named after that Christian. My point is that there is no limit to how deep and how strong God will cultivate these fruits in a follower of Christ.

    We may not all be called to be martyrs for His name. But some will. And thier hardships, trials, tribulations give God and opportunity to manifest that such grace of Christ has no limit.

    3.) No fruits of the Spirit take place without a corresponding termination and killing off of the old fallen Adamic man. This is like the growth of a human bone which requires two simultaneous processes to go on -

    anabalism, See http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_anabolism
    cantabolism See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catabolism

    These chemical processes are used here as ANALOGIES of a spiritual experience in the normal Christian life. I am not trying to give a biology lesson.

    One is a breaking down and destroying - cantabalism.
    The other is a building up by replacing and renewing - anabalism.

    This dying and resurrecting (two simultaneous processes) is mentioned much in Galatians. Especially it is evident in Paul's personal experience -

    "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

    I do not nullify the grace of God." (Gal. 2:20,21)


    The "grace of God" includes this matter that Paul has been crucified with Christ. The fruits of the Spirit have come about as something in Paul's life has been terminated. Something has died. Something has been crucified - the old EGO - "I [ego] have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I [ego] who live ..."

    This is profound. He is terminated - cantabalism. But the new "I" is an "I" that is mingled and united with the living and resurrected Christ as the Spirit - " ... but it is Christ who lives in me ..."

    He exercises faith in union with Christ. And Christ's death and resurrection is applicable to himself.

    This matter of being crucified with Christ in Galatians, that we may walk in newness of life is also seen in Paul's reference to circumcism - the Old Testament cutting off of the flesh.

    Ie. In the Spirit of the indwelling Christ is the real cutting off of the Satanisized and poisoned fallen old man. And this reality replacest the symbolic ritual of circumcision -

    "For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation [is what matters]."

    The fruits of the Spirit are the emerge with the coming into being of a new creation. And this "new creation" comes about through cantabalism and anabalism, from co-crucifixion and co-resurrection of the personality by Christ. That is by the Holy Spirit executing the reality of circumcision, not in typology but in actuality spiritually.

    I stop here.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    03 Mar '12 03:14
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    You find it hard believing that .I reckon it doesn't really matter where we came from?

    The answer, if you want to find it , is long winded and complicated. But it can be found, however it raises more questions than it answers.

    In this case something like "god did it" is satisfactory for me, not that we have remotely similar views on what "God" i ...[text shortened]... me what they are. I am genuinely curious and not just here to set you up and take the piss
    Not mattering means to me anyway that no matter how it began it changes
    nothing in the here and now, and it would have nothing to do with anything
    going to happen. So I think saying it doesn't matter is well not a very wise
    statement, I'll be kind and just say that. I wasn't trying to set you up for
    anything, just found that statment hard to believe.
    Kelly
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    03 Mar '12 04:51
    Originally posted by jaywill
    PS- And yes I know that you will have met Christians who are bad adverts for God , but that's not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that Paul seemed to have got something right.


    The "fruits of the Spirit" listed in Galatians 5:22-23:

    1.) Are only a sample list. We could not really say that these fruits of the indwelling Christ ...[text shortened]... mcision, not in typology but in actuality spiritually.

    I stop here.
    I am not trying to give a biology lesson.


    That is quite obvious.
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