Fruits of the Spirit

knightmeister View Profile

Spirituality

02 Mar '12 20:43

knightmeister
knightmeister
Uk
Joined
21 Jan '06
Moves
443
03 Mar '12 10:07
Originally posted by karoly aczel
It's good to be confident bout what you believe. I dont think it's good to be confident about spiritual matters.
It' can be a slippery slope to arrogance , wrong understanding, and lets face it, if you knew the truth then you would be able to tell it to the forum in a convincing way.
Maybe not all would be convinced , but some definately would. Let's see how your thread pans out,eh? 🙂
if you knew the truth then you would be able to tell it to the forum in a convincing way.
-----------------------------karoly--------------------

I'm afraid that this is an assumption that I don't agree with. Human nature is such that we don't always want to hear the truth and we often pre-set the parameters for truth. Also , human beings have pride and we instinctively don't want to hear about a God who is going to correct us and take control of our lives. Christianity makes the claim that human nature is not neutral and that we are in a form of prideful rebellion against God's Holiness.

The evidence of history is that many who spoke the truth (of any form) were often not listened to. People don't like truth. Me included. That's why being a Christian is a "fight of faith" for us because there's a part of us that really doesn't want to go near God.
knightmeister
knightmeister
Uk
Joined
21 Jan '06
Moves
443
03 Mar '12 10:131 edit
Originally posted by LemonJello
Sorry I irritated you. I just thought it was funny that you find it interesting that persons with joy in their lives are happier than those without joy in their lives. I do not think you need to worry about others agreeing with this observation, since it reads as more or less analytically true.

I'm afraid that I do not really understand what you are ...[text shortened]... ry contentious. Of course, we will disagree on a lot of other stuff, as you are already aware.
I'm not irritated but thanks anyway. You didn't need to apologize. I was reflecting back to you how you come across sometimes.

I am trying to get people (such as yourself) to think about what these qualities are and why they manifest themselves in certain people and not in others.

Do you know joy , self control , love , patience and peace yourself? If so what are they ? How do people get them? Where do they come from?

In a world where these qualities are in such short supply surely this is a question worth asking , yes?
jaywill
Joined
02 Aug '06
Moves
12622
03 Mar '12 11:12
Originally posted by JS357
I am not trying to give a biology lesson.

That is quite obvious.
It is also equally obvious that you have nothing much to contribute to this discussion on the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
jaywill
Joined
02 Aug '06
Moves
12622
03 Mar '12 12:35
Originally posted by JS357
Skip to the final paragraph below, if bored with text.

I would like to know more about the passage, especially this more complete and revealing one:

Galatians 5...

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, facti ...[text shortened]... , joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?"
Skip to the final paragraph below, if bored with text.

I would like to know more about the passage, especially this more complete and revealing one:

Galatians 5...

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Reportedly ( I will not cite referneces but will invite correction) this epistle was written to the early Galation Gentiles who were converting from paganism , not Judaism, and the purpose of the letter was to address Christian teachings in light of Jewish teachings that were at some odds or at least placed demands on new followers; demands that were not specifically part of Paul's message of Christ.

The passage basically says to me that Christianity, while agreeing that certain acts are bad in the extreme, offers a more positive approach to the issue. The person who strives to be receptive to these positive attributes, will naturally turn away from the negatives, and this fact, says Paul, is a key feature of the Christian message.

So my non-theistic view is that they are in fact, gifts available from Christianity if properly understood and followed.

My question is this: are the gifts of a religion those that it promises, or are they the gifts that it delivers? After all, it is by their fruits-- their works -- that you will know them. It is not what they are given, it is what they do with it.

Historically, have we seen a noticeable difference in the behavior (fruits) of Christians vs non-Christians in these respects, with less "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies," and more "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?"
karoly aczel
The Axe man
Brisbane,QLD
Joined
11 Apr '09
Moves
102812
03 Mar '12 13:47
Originally posted by KellyJay
Not mattering means to me anyway that no matter how it began it changes
nothing in the here and now, and it would have nothing to do with anything
going to happen. So I think saying it doesn't matter is well not a very wise
statement, I'll be kind and just say that. I wasn't trying to set you up for
anything, just found that statment hard to believe.
Kelly
It has been 90% preparation on the parts of humans throguthout the meillenia to set up this scenario where as many people as possibly can change the world for the better There have been many thousands of of yogi and sages that have been spreading wise news for ages, building ,building, They can se ,We maybe not the ex=acted details but the general feeling is that there is something good coming,
Joyous times ahead. The law of karma being replaced with the law of grace, Those
JS357
Joined
29 Dec '08
Moves
6788
03 Mar '12 15:32
Originally posted by jaywill
It is also equally obvious that you have nothing much to contribute to this discussion on the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Only questions. Was Paul's the letter to the Galations in response to their being of non-Jewish origin and therefore having difficulty in reconciling the new message with the practices and teachings of Christians coming from a Jewish background? The bigger question is whether extending the Christian message beyond the Jewish faith was going to be successful and how doing so would affect that very message. The "fruits of the spirit" verse together with the before it, make this issue pretty clear.
LemonJello
Joined
24 Apr '05
Moves
3061
03 Mar '12 20:081 edit
Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm not irritated but thanks anyway. You didn't need to apologize. I was reflecting back to you how you come across sometimes.

I am trying to get people (such as yourself) to think about what these qualities are and why they manifest themselves in certain people and not in others.

Do you know joy , self control , love , patience and peace you ...[text shortened]... d where these qualities are in such short supply surely this is a question worth asking , yes?
I'm glad you are looking out for me, but I have already thought about such things in great depth.

Yes, some of these questions are very good ones to ask. My advice to you (for what it's worth) would be that if you want to ask such questions, just go ahead and ask them. Take the OP for instance: you could have simply asked these questions if that was your intent, instead of just stating some more or less vacuous truisms peppered with some vague call for input.
knightmeister
knightmeister
Uk
Joined
21 Jan '06
Moves
443
04 Mar '12 00:02
Originally posted by LemonJello
I'm glad you are looking out for me, but I have already thought about such things in great depth.

Yes, some of these questions are very good ones to ask. My advice to you (for what it's worth) would be that if you want to ask such questions, just go ahead and ask them. Take the OP for instance: you could have simply asked these questions if that was ...[text shortened]... ead of just stating some more or less vacuous truisms peppered with some vague call for input.
My advice to you (for what it's worth) would be that if you want to ask such questions, just go ahead and ask them.

----------------LEMON-------------------------------------

I just did ask (LOL)!!!! ---- and you preferred to nitpick and criticize rather than engage in a meaningful debate. Once again , I'm not irritated , I just feel an obligation to reflect this back to you.
KellyJay
Walk your Faith
USA
Joined
24 May '04
Moves
157807
04 Mar '12 00:38
Originally posted by karoly aczel
It has been 90% preparation on the parts of humans throguthout the meillenia to set up this scenario where as many people as possibly can change the world for the better There have been many thousands of of yogi and sages that have been spreading wise news for ages, building ,building, They can se ,We maybe not the ex=acted details but the general fee ...[text shortened]... good coming,
Joyous times ahead. The law of karma being replaced with the law of grace, Those
I like the thought, but don't think that is what is coming soon. Personally,
I believe very dark times are coming world wide. I think the worst is about
to breakout and it is very difficult to imagine what is coming. I do think at
some point God will put an end to what we are about to do to each other, but
it will be very ugly before that happens.
Kelly
karoly aczel
The Axe man
Brisbane,QLD
Joined
11 Apr '09
Moves
102812
05 Mar '12 07:08
Originally posted by KellyJay
I like the thought, but don't think that is what is coming soon. Personally,
I believe very dark times are coming world wide. I think the worst is about
to breakout and it is very difficult to imagine what is coming. I do think at
some point God will put an end to what we are about to do to each other, but
it will be very ugly before that happens.
Kelly
You guys have been saying that for awhile now. Eventually you will die and the next generations will take over.
Have you talked to many 16-17 yr olds lately?
KellyJay
Walk your Faith
USA
Joined
24 May '04
Moves
157807
05 Mar '12 08:51
Originally posted by karoly aczel
You guys have been saying that for awhile now. Eventually you will die and the next generations will take over.
Have you talked to many 16-17 yr olds lately?
There are some things we are to do and others God, God can and does take
care of His Church He doesn't need me for that. It will be fine even after I die
off.
Kelly
jaywill
Joined
02 Aug '06
Moves
12622
05 Mar '12 11:365 edits
Originally posted by JS357
Only questions. Was Paul's the letter to the Galations in response to their being of non-Jewish origin and therefore having difficulty in reconciling the new message with the practices and teachings of Christians coming from a Jewish background? The bigger question is whether extending the Christian message beyond the Jewish faith was going to be successful an ...[text shortened]... . The "fruits of the spirit" verse together with the before it, make this issue pretty clear.
I reposted your comments because I changed my mind and decided you did have a constructive contribution to the thread.

Only questions. Was Paul's the letter to the Galations in response to their being of non-Jewish origin and therefore having difficulty in reconciling the new message with the practices and teachings of Christians coming from a Jewish background?

I would say yes. The "Judaizers" were Jewish Christian workers in competition and rivalry with Paul. The kind of people competing with God's apostle were Christians like those in Acts 15 whose backround may have been with the Pharisees. These insisted that the new Gentile believers be circumsized and come under the law of Moses.

I think some Paul called "false brothers" which indicates to me that they were not even real disciples of Jesus and had never received the Holy Spirit.

So I think yes, is my answer, with the understanding that even if the Galatians had been Jews, his argument would have been much the same.

You might consider the book of Hebrews as the Galatian letter to the Christians of Jewish backround.

The bigger question is whether extending the Christian message beyond the Jewish faith was going to be successful and how doing so would affect that very message. The "fruits of the spirit" verse together with the before it, make this issue pretty clear.

Maybe I will comment in another post.
I apologize for the insult. I am sorry.
jaywill
Joined
02 Aug '06
Moves
12622
06 Mar '12 16:101 edit
Originally posted by jaywill
I reposted your comments because I changed my mind and decided you did have a constructive contribution to the thread.

[quote] Only questions. Was Paul's the letter to the Galations in response to their being of non-Jewish origin and therefore having difficulty in reconciling the new message with the practices and teachings of Christians coming from a ote]

Maybe I will comment in another post.
I apologize for the insult. I am sorry.
The bigger question is whether extending the Christian message beyond the Jewish faith was going to be successful and how doing so would affect that very message. The "fruits of the spirit" verse together with the before it, make this issue pretty clear.

From the promise that God gave to Abraham it was determined that His blessing would be upon all the families of the earth.

So Paul writes - " ... because it is written, Cursed is everyone hanging from a tree; In other that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Gal. 3:14)

Since the physical good land of Canaan was the blessing to the nation of Israel, the larger blessing of God, extending to "the Gentiles" must be something else. It is the Holy Spirit, which today is Jesus Christ in a receivable form that He may indwell man.

Here in Genesis God promises this blessing to all the families of the earth:

"And I will bless those who bless you, And he who curses you I will curse; And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." (See Genesis 12:2,3)

Notice that Paul says "that WE might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." in Galations 3:15.

This should mean that though this blessing of the Holy Spirit is to the gentile families of the earth it is NOT restricted to them. Paul was himself of Isreal, a Jew. He includes himself in the blessing by saying "WE might receive".

Of course "all the families of the earth" does not really exclude the Jews who are after all not only the source of the Messiah but also a family of the earth.

That's good for this post.
stellspalfie
Joined
16 Jan '07
Moves
95105
06 Mar '12 16:54
"Do you know joy , self control , love , patience and peace yourself? If so what are they ? How do people get them? Where do they come from?"

We are basically talking about human emotions. which come from a mixture of nature and nurture. many aspects of behavior are passed through genetics, because of your dna you may be more likely to produce more a particular chemical which then has an effect on your body and mind. we are also effected by how we are brought up in the world. if you give a child lots of love, they are more likely to grow up happy, if you abuse them they are more likely to grow up with emotional difficulties. as we go through life our surroundings and interactions constantly mold who we are and what we feel.
these emotions have developed over the thousands of years to help us live and survive some are there just because the human body has flaws or because its being used for things it hasnt developed the ability to deal with such as drugs. food makes us feel happy to encourage us to eat. being alone makes us feel sad because its beneficial to be part of a group (you get berries while i kill that mammoth) sex feels good (it would if you christians did it properly)to encourage us to reproduce and getting kicked in the balls hurts. this is all pretty obvious stuff, is this the kinda thing you were after.
jaywill
Joined
02 Aug '06
Moves
12622
06 Mar '12 17:32
Originally posted by stellspalfie
"Do you know joy , self control , love , patience and peace yourself? If so what are they ? How do people get them? Where do they come from?"

We are basically talking about human emotions. which come from a mixture of nature and nurture. many aspects of behavior are passed through genetics, because of your dna you may be more likely to produce mor ...[text shortened]... in the balls hurts. this is all pretty obvious stuff, is this the kinda thing you were after.
If is quite the case that Paul's list seems not to mention things which anyone could cultivate, even an atheist. So what is so much a "fruit of the Spirit" about these virtues ?

Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, etc. etc.

According to experience we learn that there is a difference in these attributes exercised in the natural man and those expressed from the enfluence of the Holy Spirit.

Take love for example. In the natural man, as much as you LOVE a person today, if things turn out wrong, exactly to that degree you will HATE them. There is a self centeredness in natural human love.

Now the Holy Spirit cultivates a love in man. But the more He cultivates the love which is of Christ the more unlimited it becomes. This is a love which eventually can flow out even to one's enemies.

I may really love my teenage son. But if he steps on my heart too much that love will turn to an equal amount of annoyance, displeasure, rage even. The love flowing out of the Holy Spirit can so deepen in a man so that it seems to be without limit.

This is why the Christian who gives up himself to God completely in consecration will undergo the testing of Christ's life in him. I said that that Christian martyr was left in a deep pit for 15 years !

That requires a divine longsuffering which is Jesus Christ.
That requires a peace which no atheist has, and a joy that no humanist or agnostic has, and frankly a faithfulness and goodness that is without limitation.

Many times in the Bible this subtle difference was highlighted. For example, Peter assuring Jesus that he would not betray Him. Peter insisted that he would be faithful to the end. Jesus warns him that before the cock crows in the morning twice, Peter would DENY his Master three times.

It was as natural for Peter to deny the Lord Jesus as it was for the rooster to crow in the morning. Our fallen humanity simply does not have what it takes to follow Jesus. Peter failed of course, wept bitterly with disappointment.

But Peter learned that he could not trust himself at all. And he learned that we Christians must become "partakers of the divine nature" (1 Pet. 1:4)

that's long enough for this post.