We don't really know that consciousness is an illusion. We can only say for sure that there is good evidence to suggest this. If it is, is it even possible for the conscious mind to perceive that illusion directly? Is it possible to step outside consciousness, and if so, is it possible to think coherently having done so? I have wondered if perhaps the purported 'higher states of mind' experienced during the practice of meditation involve the trancendence of this illusion. I don't know if there are answers to these two questions, but I do know that I don't have them.
I once loved Zen very much. I was going to go to Japan to be a serious student of Zen Buddhism.
I'll tell you how a little event changed my mind. One day I was in the upper story of my college building looking down at the students below. There was a young man crossing the street. As a car approached him, I noticed that he quickened his pace to make sure he didn't get hit.
I mused on the scene. I thought "Know, I cannot be so one with everything in the universe. This guy was not one with the approaching car. Had that car hit him he would have been wounded and maybe killed. He had to make sure he was not in the same spot when that automobile arrived. He had to quicken his walk."
I am not trying to be a wise guy. This really was the beginning of my questioning some mystical concepts from Zen Buddhism that I had adopted and loved. Maybe I didn't understand rightly. But that little instance I remember was a kind of small turning point.
Its a true story.
@sonship saidYou didn't.
Maybe I didn't understand rightly. But that little instance I remember was a kind of small turning point.
@sonship saidWould you care to expand further on the 'mystical' concepts this caused you to question?
@avalanchethecat
[quote] We don't really know that consciousness is an illusion. We can only say for sure that there is good evidence to suggest this. If it is, is it even possible for the conscious mind to perceive that illusion directly? Is it possible to step outside consciousness, and if so, is it possible to think coherently having done so? I have wondered if perhaps th ...[text shortened]... ightly. But that little instance I remember was a kind of small turning point.
Its a true story.
@avalanchethecat saidHe seems to think being 'Buddhist' meant being one with the approaching car.
Would you care to expand further on the 'mystical' concepts this caused you to question?
@sonship saidBut you made the bizarre statement:
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
No I didn't.
I can exaggerate too.
You think Gospel is cannibalism.
"I cannot be so one with everything in the universe. This guy was not one with the approaching car."
I literally cringed when I read that.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Its very easy to tell us of your emotional or physical reactions.
It tells us nothing about what you DO believe.
What you DO believe is what you don't explain.
And we are all suppose to take that reluctance as your great tolerance.
Stand for something.
Then we can see if you have true tolerance for other beliefs.
Do you believe in Nirvana of some type?
@sonship saidNo sir,...I'm an atheist.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Its very easy to tell us of your emotional or physical reactions.
It tells us nothing about what you DO believe.
What you DO believe is what you don't explain.
And we are all suppose to take that reluctance as your great tolerance.
Stand for something.
Then we can see if you have true tolerance for other beliefs.
Do you believe in Nirvana of some type?
And I've told you what I believe. I believe that we live in an eternal universe, that our planet had the 8 ingredients necessary for life, that life is relatively common throughout the vast universe, that we evolved as a species, that Witness Lee has led you astray...
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No sir,...I'm an atheist.
Atheists never believe in Nirvana?
I don't think Nirvana is a theistic concept.
And I've told you what I believe. I believe that we live in an eternal universe, that our planet had the 8 ingredients necessary for life, that life is relatively common throughout the vast universe, that we evolved as a species, that Witness Lee has led you astray...
Do you believe in reincarnation?
[my bolding]
Nirvana and reincarnation
By achieving nirvana, you can escape samsara, the cycle of reincarnation that characterizes both Hinduism and Buddhism. In each life, a soul is punished or rewarded based on its past actions, or karma, from the current life as well as earlier lives (which also include lives as animals).
You seemed to defend reincarnation as if it was your belief.
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@sonship saidI've not come across an atheist who believes in Nirvana. I think you need to re-visit the concept and decide for yourself if it is compatible with atheism.
@Ghost-of-a-DukeNo sir,...I'm an atheist.
Atheists never believe in Nirvana?
I don't think Nirvana is a theistic concept.
And I've told you what I believe. I believe that we live in an eternal universe, that our planet had the 8 ingredients necessary for life, that life is relatively common throughout the vast universe, that we evolved a ...[text shortened]... include lives as animals).
You seemed to defend reincarnation as if it was your belief.
And of course I don't believe in reincarnation, but still feel inclined to defend Hindu beliefs (in the absence of any active Hindu posters) which you routinely misrepresent and belittle/mock.
Edit: You belittle these beliefs when you ridicule them and speak of them in a childlike fashion with clear misrepresentations so as to present them as obviously inferior to your own.
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I've not come across an atheist who believes in Nirvana. I think you need to re-visit the concept and decide for yourself if it is compatible with atheism.
I asked because you seemed enthusiastic about reincarnation.
And reincarnation in some faiths ends in Nirvana.
Of course I could study the various schools on this more.
And of course I don't believe in reincarnation, but still feel inclined to defend Hindu beliefs (in the absence of any active Hindu posters) which you routinely misrepresent and belittle/mock.
I do not.
I do not belittle or mock Hindu posters.
Go back to discussions between Dasa and myself.
Disagreement you will find. Me mocking or belittling I don't think you will find.
These matters take a life time to decide upon sometimes.
I do not mock and belittle what is a serious searching for the truth.
I remember the searching I did. I empathize usually.
I get prickly with some militantly mocking atheists. That I will grant you.
Edit: You belittle these beliefs when you ridicule them and speak of them in a childlike fashion with clear misrepresentations so as to present them as obviously inferior to your own.
I disagree.
I take the seeking of reality empathetically and seriously.
I do employ some sarcasm with posters that mock and belittle the Christian gospel I present. Those are usually atheists. I have been reactionary to Rajk999. But look what he calls me and says about me.
@sonship saidActually you should be concerned that it is Jesus Christ who mocks and belittles you and your nonsense doctrine. I told you already that Jesus
I do employ some sarcasm with posters that mock and belittle the Christian gospel I present. Those are usually atheists. I have been reactionary to Rajk999. But look what he calls me and says about me.
- calls you foolish for not keeping the commandments and / or preaching to others about keeping the commandments
- calls you a child of the devil for not hearing him and listening to His preachings
- calls you a liar because the truth is not in you as you do not preach about keeping the commandments.
SO according to Christ you are a fool, a liar and a child of the devil. Let me know if you want the references again.
@sonship saidI said you misrepresented and mocked other religions, not specific posters.
I do not.
I do not belittle or mock Hindu posters.
Go back to discussions between Dasa and myself.
You frequently portray concepts in Hinduism as a joke with no basis in reality, while simultaneously believing in Biblical concepts and stories with no firmer grounding in reality.
You frequently portray concepts in Hinduism as a joke with no basis in reality, while simultaneously believing in Biblical concepts and stories with no firmer grounding in reality.
Do you have a quotation as a specific example?
We talked about reincarnation. I examined it.
I don't think I belittled it or mocked it.
You're being asked to put an example up here and show me that I did.
Go get one.