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    22 Jan '11 16:01
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    [Im not entirely convinced about the validity of Revelation, sometimes I seem to be able to appreciate its allegorical meanings, sometimes I can't help but dismiss it as the wild ramblings of a possible heretic. Im personally no great believer in divine intervention, if anything it seems our Creator is a consistent adherent of laissez-faire.[/b]
    A little known fact is that much of what you read in Revelation is pulled from the prophetic books of the OT. For example, read the "beasts" in Daniel and compare that to the one mentioned in Revelation. The last beast in Daniel mirrors that of Revelation.

    To simply dismiss this book based upon your layman attempt to interpret scripture is a mistake.
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    22 Jan '11 16:031 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    In my opinion, an eternal existence anywhere is an unsavoury thought. Moreover, the traits that define me and my character will be stripped away so to mould me into a person fit for living beside your god. In effect I'd become yet another bore with lots of company.

    Once I die my perception of the universe and ability to carry any thoughts about what it's li not being alive before I was born and I'm sure I'll be equally unconcerned when I'm dead.
    So you would say that suffering and death brings interest to life that makes it worth living? Or are you saying that life is pretty much intolerable in general and having to live past 100 or so years would be more than you could bear?
  3. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Jan '11 16:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if you were in a perfect environment there would be no necessity to lie dear Agers.

    Yes one can have pride pride in ones accomplishments if they are in harmony with Gods will, for example, the early Christians took pride in the endurance that the brothers displayed in the face of persecution,

    (2 Thessalonians 1:4) . . .As a result we ourselv ...[text shortened]... may jealousy guard our precious relationship with God for example, not wanting to compromise it.
    ok, dropping pride for now (and the no lying condition is more important to my case than you give credit for), let me tighten up my last question:

    Can you list some forms of envy towards another person that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?
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    22 Jan '11 16:072 edits
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    [b]The picture you painted in your original post, the one of comfort and simplicity is undoubtedly an attractive one and this I won't deny, but I wouldn't say that it is something I'd choose at this moment of my life. I'd rather live in a world where I can develop as an individual and accomplish true progress than live in a world where there is only complacency and contemplation of the divine, as pleasing as it may be.
    Progress? You mean you feel as though you are overcoming injustices in peoples lives and your own life? In a paradise you could devote your time to other things such as exploring the universe perhaps.

    Or perhaps you are developing your mind in new ways that you enjoy presently. Wouldn't it be preferable to have an unlimited amount of time to accomplish this? Must death and suffering be apart of "developing" ones mind? In fact, don't the hassles of life, such as holding down a job to pay the rent etc., a hinderence to such development?
  5. Standard memberua41
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    22 Jan '11 16:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you would say that suffering and death brings interest to life that makes it worth living?
    Rather hard to consider life without suffering and death. They're almost inherent in definition (particularly death). If you never suffered, when would there be time to be happy?
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    22 Jan '11 16:11
    Originally posted by ua41
    Rather hard to consider life without suffering and death. They're almost inherent in definition (particularly death). If you never suffered, when would there be time to be happy?
    Very true. To be able to relate to a concept you must have a point of reference. Having said that, I think it entirely possible to do so since we, at times, enjoy our existence.
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    22 Jan '11 16:12
    Originally posted by Agerg
    ok, dropping pride for now (and the no lying condition is more important to my case than you give credit for), let me tighten up my last question:

    Can you list some forms of envy towards another person that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?
    yes you might jealousy guard your relationship with that person being careful not to do anything that may put it in jeopardy.
  8. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Jan '11 16:121 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you would say that suffering and death brings interest to life that makes it worth living?
    Not necessarily, you seem to be parading these two things about in your argument here as though to suggest they are the only things that make life worth living - fallacy of the false dilemma.
  9. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Jan '11 16:142 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes you might jealousy guard your relationship with that person being careful not to do anything that may put it in jeopardy.
    I don't see how that can be construed as being envious of another person, or envious of what they have.
  10. Donationrwingett
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    22 Jan '11 16:19
    Originally posted by whodey
    It seems to me that we all have a longing to return to the garden, a place of tranquility and bliss. You see this as people try to achieve this garden politically, economically etc., but all become abject failures in the end.

    However, if you were able, would you return to the garden mentioned in the Bible so that you could commune with God face to face, or do you prefer where you are now?
    Your mistake is in assuming that the Garden of Eden was a literal place and that Adam and Eve were literal people. They're not. They're all metaphors. The Garden of Eden represents pre-civilized earth where mankind lived a pristine existence as hunter-gatherers. They were wholly integrated into their natural surroundings and the circle of life, and as such were in direct communion with 'god' (in a pantheist sense).

    But then came private property and The Fall. The common bounty of the earth was divided up between 'mine and thine' and that primordial link to the wholeness of nature was broken. Mankind perceived himself to be separate and apart from nature, which was seen as something to be owned and exploited for profit and gain. The circle was broken. The wholeness was undone. Mankind had set himself apart from 'god' (in a pantheist sense) and has since wandered in a fallen state, as he tries, in vain, to retrace his steps to the garden.
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    22 Jan '11 16:29
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Your mistake is in assuming that the Garden of Eden was a literal place and that Adam and Eve were literal people. They're not. They're all metaphors. The Garden of Eden represents pre-civilized earth where mankind lived a pristine existence as hunter-gatherers. They were wholly integrated into their natural surroundings and the circle of life, and as such ...[text shortened]... ce wandered in a fallen state, as he tries, in vain, to retrace his steps to the garden.
    So your Garden of Eden is pre-civilized earth. Is it not your longing to return?
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    22 Jan '11 16:30
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Not necessarily, you seem to be parading these two things about in your argument here as though to suggest they are the only things that make life worth living - fallacy of the false dilemma.
    Indeed. Who is to say what makes life worth living? So for you, what is it?
  13. Donationrwingett
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    22 Jan '11 16:39
    Originally posted by whodey
    So your Garden of Eden is pre-civilized earth. Is it not your longing to return?
    As they say, you can never go home again. Eden is lost to us. Civilization cannot be undone. What Jesus represented was an attempt to reconcile our fallen civilized state with our pristine pre-civilized past and arrive at a synthesis whereby we might once again live in harmony with the wholeness of nature and 'god' (in a pantheist sense). Where we might once again be whole ourselves. The way to go is forward, not back.
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    22 Jan '11 16:46
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I don't see how that can be construed as being envious of another person, or envious of what they have.
    thats because its not, the Bible states that God jealousy guards his people, what it means is that he protects them, thus if you jealousy guard a relationship , it means that you will protect that relationship by making sure nothing puts it in jeopardy.
  15. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Jan '11 16:50
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    thats because its not, the Bible states that God jealousy guards his people, what it means is that he protects them, thus if you jealousy guard a relationship , it means that you will protect that relationship by making sure nothing puts it in jeopardy.
    But then my question:

    Can you list some forms of envy towards another person that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

    remains unanswered.
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