Garden of Eden

Originally posted by obsesschess
Exactly.

The bible story is no more credible than other possibilities like:
1. we really are in 'The Matrix'
2. we are sitting in a holodeck (star-trek style), with the safeties turned off and no memory of our life prior to entering the holodeck
3. the entire universe (and us in it) are a sophisticated program generated by some fancy quantum comput ...[text shortened]... aybe comotose like in Vanilla Sky movie?) and living out in a virtual world of the mind etc.

===============================
1. we really are in 'The Matrix'
===========================

You hit the nail right on the head. We are in a kind of evil Matrix.

We were born into a very very bad Matrix like world.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well the fact that it wouldn't be you does not negate the fact that it would be awesome. It seems to me you have the impression that its elsewhere where in fact the Bible makes it clear that its an earthly physical paradise. Please explain why you think that your personality would be stripped away? Is there not variety in life? Is not every snowf ect physical and spiritual environment the options for learning and experience are limitless!

well the fact that it wouldn't be you does not negate the fact that it would be awesome. It seems to me you have the impression that its elsewhere where in fact the Bible makes it clear that its an earthly physical paradise.
That assertion has no more clout than the assertion living as a fly would be awesome if you were a fly - It wouldn't be *me* in that fairy-tale garden, wherever it may happen to be and so I'm entitled to hold the opinion it wouldn't be awesome.

Please explain why you think that your personality would be stripped away?
I did, when I wrote:

It wouldn't be *me*, the slightly sarcastic, banter loving human with his own opinions of what is good, bad, and proper living in that fairy tale place; it would be some person who agrees that whatever God_{whodey} says is good is maximally good, what it says is bad as wickedly evil, who wouldn't say boo to a goose (there presumably wouldn't be any geese up there of course) and is constantly on his best behaviour around people who've wronged him in this life lacking the capacity to be annoyed with them and give them a piece of my mind. All the things about me which my friends find funny would be stripped away
No sarcasm, no bending the truth for the sake of a joke, no banter-like taking the p!ss out of others or myself (since they wouldn't be equipped to find it funny in this bizarro garden), no opinions that were mis-aligned with God_{whodey}, no harmless mischief - feck, we'd all be living as sodding Vulcans (albeit without the logic (since God_{whodey} is inherently illogical)).

You have at present seventy or eighty years, hardly enough time to master one discipline, and yet you are trying to assert that God would 'erode', your knowledge so as to retain new avenues to explore? Does one learn to swim and forget it? does one learn to play the guitar and forget it? Hardly! During the present existence we use a very small proportion of the capacity of our minds, given the correct physical and spiritual environment the options for learning and experience are limitless!
Whodey's assumption isn't that we would be residing in this place for a finite interval of time so your rebuttal here (derived from your experience of a short period of existence) is poorly aimed.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]well the fact that it wouldn't be you does not negate the fact that it would be awesome. It seems to me you have the impression that its elsewhere where in fact the Bible makes it clear that its an earthly physical paradise.
That assertion has no more clout than the assertion living as a fly would be awesome if you were a fly - It wouldn't be *me* in t ere (derived from your experience of a short period of existence) is poorly aimed.[/b]

your assertions of fairy tales notwithstanding does not negate the awesomeness of the experience Agers, for we are human and we enjoy life in all its diveristy, can the same be said of a midge, lives for a day, procreates and dies, hardly! For we have a consciousness and the ability to communicate that consciousness through ideas and language!

Your assertion that we would be androids deviod of personality is illogical and ignores the evidence, that God wants us to be happy and fulfilled individuals each with our own personality. The idea that our behaviour must be perfect is Calvinistic in nature and belies and attitude that you must be goody goody all the time. Its illogical for clearly perfection is relative, for if it were not, be would play snooker and score a break of 147 every time, we would play flawless chess, which would make life rather dull, and cannot therefore be supported.

who cares what Whodey thinks, he knows nothing of Paradise! its all politics to him! therefore my point with regard to our limited time and experience for learning, in opposition to your assertion that knowledge would be striped away as if your mind were destined to be a broken cup, cannot be recommended

Originally posted by whodey
What? You mean this current world is better than a place where you have no death or suffering? Would you prefer to have the current elites rule over us who think they are all knowing and all powerful than a holy God that IS all knowing and powerful?

I suppose you don't buy the whole Revelation scenrio. You know, where the nations of the earth are left t ...[text shortened]... ce where they are on the verge of destroying themselves before God intervenes to save humanity.

The picture you painted in your original post, the one of comfort and simplicity is undoubtedly an attractive one and this I won't deny, but I wouldn't say that it is something I'd choose at this moment of my life. I'd rather live in a world where I can develop as an individual and accomplish true progress than live in a world where there is only complacency and contemplation of the divine, as pleasing as it may be.

Im not entirely convinced about the validity of Revelation, sometimes I seem to be able to appreciate its allegorical meanings, sometimes I can't help but dismiss it as the wild ramblings of a possible heretic. Im personally no great believer in divine intervention, if anything it seems our Creator is a consistent adherent of laissez-faire.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your assertions of fairy tales notwithstanding does not negate the awesomeness of the experience Agers, for we are human and we enjoy life in all its diveristy, can the same be said of a midge, lives for a day, procreates and dies, hardly! For we have a consciousness and the ability to communicate that consciousness through ideas and language!

...[text shortened]... ge would be striped away as if your mind were destined to be a broken cup, cannot be recommended

your assertions of fairy tales notwithstanding does not negate the awesomeness of the experience Agers, for we are human and we enjoy life in all its diveristy, can the same be said of a midge, lives for a day, procreates and dies, hardly! For we have a consciousness and the ability to communicate that consciousness through ideas and language!
That conciousness, if I can establish it wouldn't be *me* in whatever shell gives rise to my perception in that "Garden", has no more virtue to me than the lesser conciousness I would have as a fly. I don't want to be God_{whodey} drone 1027382937461, I want to be *me*, warts and all!

Your assertion that we would be androids deviod of personality is illogical and ignores the evidence, that God wants us to be happy and fulfilled individuals each with our own personality. The idea that our behaviour must be perfect is Calvinistic in nature and belies and attitude that you must be goody goody all the time. Its illogical for clearly perfection is relative, for if it were not, be would play snooker and score a break of 147 every time, we would play flawless chess, which would make life rather dull, and cannot therefore be supported.
Well an illogical conclusion works in my favour if it is deduced validly by assuming some premise X - since, as per proof by contradiction, it then allows me to conclude X is not true.
Since this is my main contention, and my argument is currently with you, I suppose I should work on your terms, and more slowly to establish the conclusion I put forward.[1]

Anyway, to start this off let me ask you a question:

What sins are permissible in (Garden of Eden)_{Robbie Carrobie}?

who cares what Whodey thinks, he knows nothing of Paradise! its all politics to him! therefore my point with regard to our limited time and experience for learning, in opposition to your assertion that knowledge would be striped away as if your mind were destined to be a broken cup, cannot be recommended
A few posts prior to the one where our exchange here took place I conceded it would be ok to live in such a garden for a finite length of time corresponding to roughly the number of years I can expect to live given my current age (albeit with the annoyance at not being *me*)




-------------------------------------------------------------------
1) noting that since we're shifting from (Garden of Eden)_{whodey} to (Garden of Eden)_{Robbie Carrobie} whatever results from this discussion may not apply to (Garden of Eden)_{whodey}

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===============================
1. we really are in 'The Matrix'
===========================

You hit the nail right on the head. We are in a kind of evil Matrix.

We were born into a very very bad Matrix like world.[/b]

The only "bad" thing about this "Matrix" is that I cant get me Joy Division discography set onto my MediaPlayer.

Of course there is nothing bad here. Its just this world with us in it, which is an illusion. Great. You gotta have a sense of humour about this stuff!

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]your assertions of fairy tales notwithstanding does not negate the awesomeness of the experience Agers, for we are human and we enjoy life in all its diveristy, can the same be said of a midge, lives for a day, procreates and dies, hardly! For we have a consciousness and the ability to communicate that consciousness through ideas and language!
That con Carrobie} whatever results from this discussion may not apply to (Garden of Eden)_{whodey}[/b]

Well an illogical conclusion works in my favour if it is deduced validly by assuming some premise X - since, as per proof by contradiction, it then allows me to conclude X is not true.
Since this is my main contention, and my argument is currently with you, I suppose I should work on your terms, and more slowly to establish the conclusion I put forward.

ok i concede, obviously you are a calculating machine! Half man half borg!

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The only "bad" thing about this "Matrix" is that I cant get me Joy Division discography set onto my MediaPlayer.

Of course there is nothing bad here. Its just this world with us in it, which is an illusion. Great. You gotta have a sense of humour about this stuff!

i watched the first five minutes and then could watch no more, guys with black jackets and shotguns, too violent for me man!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i watched the first five minutes and then could watch no more, guys with black jackets and shotguns, too violent for me man!

You mean the movie "The Matrix" ,right?

You need not watch the movie. It is only the concept of the " matrix" that intrugues me.
Bsaically there is no way of knowing absolutely whether we are in the real life (that we most of us assume we inhabit), or whether we are in a "matrix" -type reality where our sensory inputs may well be just the "reality" that we assume to be real life as we know it.

There is no concrete way of knowing wether way, unless we ascend to the level of christ conciousness/elightenment, where we will be "one" with the matrix of our creation(s).

Again , it is with good humour that i recommend that we/you explore any furthur ramifications of my contention.

The truth of our lives are scary to comprehend, and it would take a brave "soul" to go the "whole hog" and delve into the truth of this very tricky quest.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Well an illogical conclusion works in my favour if it is deduced validly by assuming some premise X - since, as per proof by contradiction, it then allows me to conclude X is not true.
Since this is my main contention, and my argument is currently with you, I suppose I should work on your terms, and more slowly to establish the conclusion I put forward.

ok i concede, obviously you are a calculating machine! Half man half borg!

nah...just a person who's given this tripe more thought than
oohh...won't it be lovely! I wonder what wonderful and magical treats are in store for me when I get there? perhaps I'll spend a million years licking the biggest strawberry spiral lollipop you evah did see!...ooh can't wait!!!

I notice you gave up at the point where I asked you what sins your god would allow in the garden, coincidence!?...I think not! :]

Originally posted by Agerg
nah...just a person who's given this tripe more thought than
oohh...won't it be lovely! I wonder what wonderful and magical treats are in store for me when I get there? perhaps I'll spend a million years licking the biggest strawberry spiral lollipop you evah did see!...ooh can't wait!!!

I notice you gave up at the point where I asked you what sins your god would allow in the garden, coincidence!?...I think not! :]

No way, your a calculation machine Agers, probably a Vulcan who views the world in terms of equations and pure logic! what's wrong with spiral strawberry flavoured lollipops? As for sins, you see, when one reaches perfection, sin will be no more, for that's all that sin is, imperfection, no sin Agers.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No way, your a calculation machine Agers, probably a Vulcan who views the world in terms of equations and pure logic! what's wrong with spiral strawberry flavoured lollipops? As for sins, you see, when one reaches perfection, sin will be no more, for that's all that sin is, imperfection, no sin Agers.

I see...so no sins in the garden then.

Is lying, to any extent, a sin to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

Originally posted by Agerg
I see...so no sins in the garden then.

Is lying, to any extent, a sin to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

actually the Bible makes it clear that sin will gradually be eradicated and that mankind will be brought back to perfection as they were before the rebellion in Eden. Lying is a sin, yes.

(Proverbs 6:16-19) . . .There are six things that Jehovah does hate; yes, seven are things detestable to his soul:  lofty eyes, a false tongue, and hands that are shedding innocent blood,  a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet that are in a hurry to run to badness,  a false witness that launches forth lies, and anyone sending forth contentions among brothers.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually the Bible makes it clear that sin will gradually be eradicated and that mankind will be brought back to perfection as they were before the rebellion in Eden. Lying is a sin, yes.

(Proverbs 6:16-19) . . .There are six things that Jehovah does hate; yes, seven are things detestable to his soul:  lofty eyes, a false tongue, and hands that a ...[text shortened]...  a false witness that launches forth lies, and anyone sending forth contentions among brothers.

ok...so we have established that in any form, I cannot lie in the garden (your version of it that is) - I could actually stop here but I'll continue...next question:

Can you list some forms of prideReveal Hidden Contentthat are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?
Can you list some forms of envy that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

Originally posted by Agerg
ok...so we have established that in any form, I cannot lie in the garden (your version of it that is) - I could actually stop here but I'll continue...next question:

Can you list some forms of pride[hidden]no..not a group of lions! ;][/hidden]that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?
Can you list some forms of envy that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

if you were in a perfect environment there would be no necessity to lie dear Agers.

Yes one can have pride pride in ones accomplishments if they are in harmony with Gods will, for example, the early Christians took pride in the endurance that the brothers displayed in the face of persecution,

(2 Thessalonians 1:4) . . .As a result we ourselves take pride in you among the congregations of God because of your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the tribulations that you are bearing.

Envy in a Biblical context can also mean being zealous, that is being keen or enthusiastic for a particular cause of reason. consider this,

The related Hebrew words for “jealousy” occur over 80 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Almost half of these references are to Jehovah God. “When applied to God,” explains G. H. Livingston, “the concept of jealousy does not carry the connotation of a warped emotion, but, rather, of an insistence on the singleness of worship of Jehovah.” (The Pentateuch in Its Cultural Environment) Thus, the New World Translation sometimes renders the Hebrew noun “insistence on exclusive devotion.” (Ezekiel 5:13) Other appropriate renderings are “ardor” or “zeal.”—Psalm 79:5; Isaiah 9:7.

thus it is clear that one can be enthusiastic for say pure worship, meaning that we may jealousy guard our precious relationship with God for example, not wanting to compromise it.