Garden of Eden

Originally posted by Agerg
But then my question:

Can you list some forms of envy towards another person that are not a sin with respect to God_{Robbie Carrobie}?

remains unanswered.

It remains both answered and illustrated Agers. If you are talking of the destructive type of jealousy, then sowwy i cannot help you!

Originally posted by whodey
Indeed. Who is to say what makes life worth living? So for you, what is it?

Living un-fettered by the decrees and laws of some god, to converse and interact with the sort of people who can be just as silly as I without fear of p!ssing off some damned warder in the sky, the ability to learn and apply new knowledge independently of whether it goes against the neanderthal teachings of some collection of religious zealots/fundamentalists, to be a lazy sod when I feel like it and the opportunity presents, to fulfill some desires to outperform other humans in certain disciplines for the sake of my own pride, to acknowledge and enjoy my animal instincts that compel me to desire intercourse with the opposite sex (though I make no pretence there isn't room for improvement in that area!), to tell lies when it is pragmatic or may garner a laugh, to take the p!ss out of myself and others and invite the same, the ability to speak my mind when someone makes me angry,...

Basically doing lots of the sort of stuff your god hates (though maybe, coincidentally, a few things it likes) :]

Originally posted by whodey
A little known fact is that much of what you read in Revelation is pulled from the prophetic books of the OT. For example, read the "beasts" in Daniel and compare that to the one mentioned in Revelation. The last beast in Daniel mirrors that of Revelation.

To simply dismiss this book based upon your layman attempt to interpret scripture is a mistake.

Im aware of this, but it doesn't in any way serve to conceal the outright bizarre tales told by the writer of Revelation. George Bernard Shaw once called it the "peculiar record of the visions of a drug addict" it is a description which ,knowing the contents of the Book, I can understand.

Originally posted by whodey
Progress? You mean you feel as though you are overcoming injustices in peoples lives and your own life? In a paradise you could devote your time to other things such as exploring the universe perhaps.

Or perhaps you are developing your mind in new ways that you enjoy presently. Wouldn't it be preferable to have an unlimited amount of time to accomplis of life, such as holding down a job to pay the rent etc., a hinderence to such development?

Like I said, the prospects of life in paradise are appealing, but it isn't something I'd be willing to accept at this moment considering how much there is to do here in our world. Overcoming injustices in people's lives seems like a more worthwhile endeavor.

I wouldn't say that the strains of modern life necessarily prevent me from developing my mind, on the contrary, sometimes it is evedyday occurrences and routines that stimulates thinking about all sorts of philosophical questions.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It remains both answered and illustrated Agers. If you are talking of the destructive type of jealousy, then sowwy i cannot help you!

ok, I'll stop and invite you to consider my response to whodey...given we can rule out immediately any forms of lying - a number of such are essential components of my style humour; which parts of *me* in that response are off limits in your formulation of the garden?

Originally posted by Agerg
ok, I'll stop and invite you to consider my response to whodey...given we can rule out immediately any forms of lying - a number of such are essential components of my style humour, which parts of *me* in that response are off limits in your formulation of the garden?

none, for as you were restored to perfection, any inclination towards these personality traits would be prone to a self mechanising program as your conscience, now finely tuned and working (not slaved over and somewhat insensitive as it is at present) would find different kinds of things humorous as you were spiritually elevated in your new found perfect condition! Thus while your personality essentially stayed the same, what motivated these emotions might be viewed in a different light.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
none, for as you were restored to perfection, any inclination towards these personality traits would be prone to a self mechanising program as your conscience, now finely tuned and working (not slaved over and somewhat insensitive as it is at present) would find different kinds of things humorous as you were spiritually elevated in your new found per ...[text shortened]... essentially stayed the same, what motivated these emotions might be viewed in a different light.

Then it would not be *me* in that garden...it would be some Joe Bloggs. Moreover, suggesting my inclination to behave in accorance with my traits as they are now would change as I "achieve perfection" is a sleight of hand way of saying they're off limits.
*me* is the person I detailed in that response - no "improvements".

Originally posted by Agerg
Then it would not be *me* in that garden...it would be some Joe Bloggs.
*me* is the person I detailed in that response - no "improvements".

well Agers if your not yourself, the who the heck are you? this is the point, of course it would be you, only spiritually elevated you. Imagine having a perfect intellect, think of all the calculations your mind could do, you could work out that jealousy was essentially a negative and destructive quality and shun it, you could become witty instead of merely sarcastic (not saything that is true in your case, clearly it is not, its merely an illustration), all in all you would be virtuous and spend your time gardening and making love and playing with your children and learning so many good and useful things.

The New Jerusalem in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 is a sign of a profound state of man in God's salvation.

The precious stones represent transformed human beings.

The one gold street represents the walk of these transformed human beings in the divine nature of the Father.

Transformed human beings living and walking daily by the "street" of the divine nature of God.

The city is really a mountain of solid gold. The street is a path cut into this mountain of God.

Transformed human beings, through sanctification and transformation, walk in God, by God, in the sphere and realm of the divine nature of God.

In the middle of the one street (and there is only ONE street) flows "the river of the water of life, clear as crystal . As man walks by the divine nature of God God dispenses, pours, and flows His eternal life and nature into this man.

The way the street goes, the water flows. In this walk the Triune God is dispensing Himself into man.

Along the river in the middle of the one street, and on either side, is "the tree of life". From Genesis God placed man before "the tree of life" . That was the tree that Adam should have eaten of rather than "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"

God has brought the city back to His original purpose in creating man. That is that man might "eat" God. That is that man might take God into his being and become constituted, saturated, and dispensed into by God.

The New Jerusalem represents the MASS PRODUCTION of Jesus Christ. Christ is now multiplied and duplicated in millions or billions of people for the mingling of God and man. That is why they are precious stones. The triune God has transformed them by dispensing Himself into them.

This city is called:

1.) The tabernacle of God - meaning God lives in man and man lives in God. This is a total mingling of divinity and humanity.

Jesus - enlarged as a city.

2.) She is the Wife of the Lamb. She MATHCES Jesus Christ. They two match one another. God wants a Bride and a Wife for His Son. This Wife He ends up with is a collective, a city.

The the Father this "city" is a tabernacle for God to live in man.
To the Son this is a Wife and a Bride to MATCH what Jesus Christ is.

The street is one. There is no Baptist street, no Pentacostal street, no Methodist street, no Lutheran street, no Weslyian street. There is only a street of the divine nature of the Father.

The gold of the city is as transparent glass. Man becomes so transparent and clear that looking into man one sees the eternal God. God is mingled with humanity.


Around the city are "the nations". These are peoples living on the new earth who are not born again but are restored to the state Adam was in before he fell.

The constituents of the city are like the capital of the new heaven and the new earth. You have the sons of God as New Jerusalem and you have the nations which surround her and who walk in her light.

To enter into this holy city New Jerusalem, you must past through gates which are of pearl. No huge oyster of tremendous size has produced these gigantic pearls. This gates of pearl are also symbolic.

Christ, as the oyster at the bottom of the sea produced these gates. Christ came down to bottom of the sea of death, this sin cursed world. On the cross we wounded Him with our sins. And in His love He poured out His life for us. Like the oyster pours out a secretion around the offending grain of sand to produce a pearl, Christ at the bottom of the sin filled world was wounded on His cross by our sins.

Then He poured out His life for us and around us like the wounded oyster. And this pouring out of Christ is the entrance, the gate into the kingdom of God. Because He poured out His life for the sinners He Himself is the entrance into the eternal city.

That is why the gates are seen by John to be of pearls.

Originally posted by whodey
So you would prefer death over an eternity in the Bible paradise known as Eden? Hmm.

Hmmm indeed. The original poster said nothing of "minding ones p's and q's" or glorifying God's ego 24/7. It only said would you rather live in the Eden as described. And I for one raise my hand. I'll take near immortality, no disease or famine, no wars, walking and talking with the Almighty, etc.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Hmmm indeed. The original poster said nothing of "minding ones p's and q's" or glorifying God's ego 24/7. It only said would you rather live in the Eden as described. And I for one raise my hand. I'll take near immortality, no disease or famine, no wars, walking and talking with the Almighty, etc.

immortality is different from everlasting life, subtle i know, but there is a difference.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well Agers if your not yourself, the who the heck are you? this is the point, of course it would be you, only spiritually elevated you. Imagine having a perfect intellect, think of all the calculations your mind could do, you could work out that jealousy was essentially a negative and destructive quality and shun it, you could become witty instead ...[text shortened]... ning and making love and playing with your children and learning so many good and useful things.

My character is defined by the qualities your god would eradicate; strip away those traits and I become someone else. I like being *me*, I think being as your god supposedly wants would be rubbish - and I hate gardening!

You might as well say living as a person with severe learning difficulties would be awesome since I'd have little capacity to formulate any notions of how I would be disadvantaged.

Originally posted by jaywill
The New Jerusalem in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 is a sign of a profound state of man in God's salvation.

The precious stones represent transformed human beings.

The one gold street represents the walk of these transformed human beings in the divine nature of the Father.

Transformed human beings living and walking daily by the "street" of the to the eternal city.

That is why the gates are seen by John to be of pearls.

a post of utter idolatrous epic proportions!

The New Jerusalem represents the MASS PRODUCTION of Jesus Christ. - Jaywill

The New Jerusalem, that is, a typical representation of the old Jerusalem with its King, (pictured in this instance as Jesus Christ), who sat on the throne of God, WITH, the Levitical priesthood, (pictured in this instance by the 144,000 who will reside with Christ in the heavens forming a Kingdom of Kings and priests) making what the Bible terms New Jerusalem or in other words Gods Kingdom! and who will hold dominion over the earthly paradise! pictured buy the gentile proselytes who were not allowed to enter the temple itself but had to remain in the temple courtyard!

Originally posted by Agerg
My character is defined by the qualities your god would eradicate; strip away those traits and I become someone else. I like being *me*, I think being as your god supposedly wants would be rubbish - and I hate gardening!

no not eradicate, refine, and if you hate gardening then you would have an eternity to do something else.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no not eradicate, refine, and if you hate gardening then you would have an eternity to do something else.

Nope...If I want to lie, for example, and your god forbids, or renders impossible the act of lying then my propensity for telling porkies has not been "refined", it has been eradicated.

[re-edit] You might as well say living as a person with severe learning difficulties would be awesome since I'd have little capacity to formulate any notions of how I would be disadvantaged, and how living in that way isn't awesome.