Originally posted by JS357That's because Christianity IS "driven by the prospect of personal gain" which IS "the center of it".That way of thinking is the result of the teaching of "salvation by faith" which is intrinsically self-centered. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of Jesus which has non-self-centeredness at the center. Jesus taught salvation by righteousness. That His followers were to follow His commandments and become one with God as He was one with God.
Saying the offer to forgive sins and raise you from the dead is hard to beat, makes it sound to me like Christian faith is driven by the prospect of personal gain, or, at least, the prospect of personal gain is at the center of it. It is also a commonly stated "selling point" of Christianity. I have always wondered about that. I wonder if that way of thinking is a result of living in a personal gain-oriented world. Maybe you can clarify.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus taught that salvation comes through self sacrifice, not self righteousness, or have
That's because Christianity IS "driven by the prospect of personal gain" which IS "the center of it".That way of thinking is the result of the teaching of "salvation by faith" which is intrinsically self-centered. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of Jesus which has non-self-centeredness at the center. Jesus taught salvation by righteousness. That His followers were to follow His commandments and become one with God as He was one with God.
you never read,
(Matthew 10:38-39) . . .And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after
me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for
my sake will find it.
Originally posted by JS357This leads to a basic dilemma for Christians. You cannot get into heaven deliberately. ie it is selfish to try to get into heaven, and the way in is via selflessness.
Saying the offer to forgive sins and raise you from the dead is hard to beat, makes it sound to me like Christian faith is driven by the prospect of personal gain, or, at least, the prospect of personal gain is at the center of it. It is also a commonly stated "selling point" of Christianity. I have always wondered about that.
My favorite question for Christians is "would you give up your place in heaven for another?" That is the true test of love.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell Jesus Christ took your place in Hell so you don't have to go there, beyond
This leads to a basic dilemma for Christians. You cannot get into heaven deliberately. ie it is selfish to try to get into heaven, and the way in is via selflessness.
My favorite question for Christians is "would you give up your place in heaven for another?" That is the true test of love.
that it is Jesus' righteousness not ours that saves us.
Kelly
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNo it is not driven by personal gain! My life was bought by God through Jesus
That's because Christianity IS "driven by the prospect of personal gain" which IS "the center of it".That way of thinking is the result of the teaching of "salvation by faith" which is intrinsically self-centered. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of Jesus which has non-self-centeredness at the center. Jesus taught salvation by righteousness. That His followers were to follow His commandments and become one with God as He was one with God.
Christ and it is by His giving His life for mine am I saved. Nothing there but God
getting a life that was filled with sin for one He can now claim as His own. If you
want to look at those whose real desire is just to get what they can get from God
than I do not think your looking at anyone whose given their lives to God through
Jesus Christ, instead your looking at people who want to use God as some people
do witchcraft or other sources of power beyond themselves.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadwhat a boob, not all Christians profess belief that they will go to heaven, making your
This leads to a basic dilemma for Christians. You cannot get into heaven deliberately. ie it is selfish to try to get into heaven, and the way in is via selflessness.
My favorite question for Christians is "would you give up your place in heaven for another?" That is the true test of love.
statement, somewhat, well, unfounded!
Originally posted by Proper KnobI think this may have got lost in the mire -
Let's start from what we know instead.
Domesticated dogs evolved from wolves, i think we can agree on that. Do you accept that the other members of the Canidae family, ie wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes, all share the same common ancestor?
Let's start from what we know instead.
Domesticated dogs evolved from wolves, i think we can agree on that. Do you accept that the other members of the Canidae family, ie wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes, all share the same common ancestor?
Originally posted by KellyJaySo Christs preaching was all for naught? Why did he say so many things about how to live and how to love? Whether or not it is required to get into heaven, Jesus clearly suggested that his words should be followed. Also, although Paul suggested you could get in based on Jesus' sacrifice, Jesus himself gave a very different story - in the parable of the sheep and the goats.
Well Jesus Christ took your place in Hell so you don't have to go there, beyond
that it is Jesus' righteousness not ours that saves us.
Kelly
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are not allowed to respond to my posts. I am invisible to you.
what a boob, not all Christians profess belief that they will go to heaven, making your
statement, somewhat, well, unfounded!
And in case you didn't know, you are not Christian - or so I have been told by Christians.
Originally posted by twhiteheadJesus' teaching point to a better way of living yes, as He points us to Himself as
So Christs preaching was all for naught? Why did he say so many things about how to live and how to love? Whether or not it is required to get into heaven, Jesus clearly suggested that his words should be followed. Also, although Paul suggested you could get in based on Jesus' sacrifice, Jesus himself gave a very different story - in the parable of the sheep and the goats.
the way to God. It is completely due to Jesus Christ not us that justifies us, this
gives us His righteousness and causes us to not setup our own, but in doing that
we do it through Him in a relationship with God in Christ. Simply obeying some
new set of 'rules' is just another legal law all over again which we have failed at
already, a relationship with God is what is required and honestly desired above
all else. Jesus and Paul do not disagree, they are just talking about the same thing
from two different perspectives, one from our savior, the other from a sinner
saved by grace. We more than likely see more issues with translations than intent
of what each of them said.
Kelly
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYour post doesn't make any sense. Try reading my post again.
Jesus taught that salvation comes through self sacrifice, not self righteousness, or have
you never read,
(Matthew 10:38-39) . . .And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after
me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for
my sake will find it.
For one, I didn't say that "Jesus taught that salvation comes through...self righteousness". Why do you insist on twisting whatever I say?
For another, you should really consider reading and understanding what Jesus taught in its entirety instead of pulling individual verses out to prop up whatever point you're trying to make.
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Originally posted by KellyJayPeople let the fear/anxiety of the unknown enslave them. They seem to be able to convince themselves of anything in order to alleivate it. The concept of "salvation by faith" seems to fit the bill for the vast majority of Christians. They convince themselves that they get a "free gift" for merely "accepting Jesus as their savior" or whatever token gesture(s) (that fall short of righteousness which was what Jesus taught when He walked the Earth) they believe are the minimum requirement for "salvation"/"heaven"/"eternal life". They convince themselves that they have "given their lives to God" even though they are not righteous, i.e., they continue to sin. So even if they don't pray to God for things, their belief in "salvation by faith" IS self-centered and for personal gain.
No it is not driven by personal gain! My life was bought by God through Jesus
Christ and it is by His giving His life for mine am I saved. Nothing there but God
getting a life that was filled with sin for one He can now claim as His own. If you
want to look at those whose real desire is just to get what they can get from God
than I do not think your loo ...[text shortened]... ant to use God as some people
do witchcraft or other sources of power beyond themselves.
Kelly
"The truth will make you free".
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneif their righteousness is not self righteousness then what is it, for the scriptures make it
Your post doesn't make any sense. Try reading my post again.
For one, I didn't say that "Jesus taught that salvation comes through...[b]self righteousness". Why do you insist on twisting whatever I say?
For another, you should really consider reading and understanding what Jesus taught in its entirety instead of pulling individual verses out to prop up whatever point you're trying to make.[/b]
clear that a person, while in a state of imperfection, cannot possibly be righteous in the
absolute sense, that is why, the scripture states that they are 'declared righteous', on
the basis of Christ's sacrifice, not actually righteous in the absolute sense. Try reading
the Bible it will save you making erroneous assertions and pretensions of knowledge
and inadvertently, claiming that persons twist what you say. You may of course want
to read this two or three times, so that its import does not evade you a second time.
Of course from time to time you may also attempt to address the point the poster was
making.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRighteousness is not the same as "self righteousness". I did not say "self righteousness". So you did twist what I said.
if their righteousness is not self righteousness then what is it, for the scriptures make it
clear that a person, while in a state of imperfection, cannot possibly be righteous in the
absolute sense, that is why, the scripture states that they are 'declared righteous', on
the basis of Christ's sacrifice, not actually righteous in the absolute s ...[text shortened]... f course from time to time you may also attempt to address the point the poster was
making.
Jesus said to follow Him, follow His word. Jesus did not say to follow the word of others.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI have explained why i think the import of your text was self righteousness, even
Righteousness is not the same as "self righteousness". I did not say "self righteousness". So you did twist what I said.
Jesus said to follow Him, follow His word. Jesus did not say to follow the word of others.
though it was not mentioned specifically, try to address the actual content. What this
last statement has to do with anything is tenuous at best.