God just HAS to know...!

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think the difficulty is in understanding that God's knowledge is contingent on our choices. If don't make choice X then his knowledge of X cannot exist. The hard bit is the eternal dimension side of things. From our perspective it looks as if we have to "perform" X in order to fulfil God's knowledge , but from an eternal perspective we are not fulfilling anything we are just doing it at that moment.

If God is an eternal entity separate from our timeline, then our view of him should be independent of time ie what he is to us at time T should be identical to what he is to us at time T+1. If he is receiving information from the universe then he would have all that information for our full timeline. Our view of him would be him knowing all that information. However this constitutes time travel, an issue you seem to be keen to avoid.
It also raises the problem that Gods interaction with the universe can never be based on his knowledge of future events ie when he created the universe he simultaneously knew the universes whole history but he could not plan it out based on that knowledge.
You are yet to address any of these issues - instead you seem to just keep repeating your position over and over in the hope that you will eventually believe it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If God is an eternal entity separate from our timeline, then our view of him should be independent of time ie what he is to us at time T should be identical to what he is to us at time T+1. If he is receiving information from the universe then he would have all that information for our full timeline. Our view of him would be him knowing all that informati ...[text shortened]... just keep repeating your position over and over in the hope that you will eventually believe it.

It also raises the problem that Gods interaction with the universe can never be based on his knowledge of future events ie when he created the universe he simultaneously knew the universes whole history but he could not plan it out based on that knowledge.

-----------whitey----------------------

Why is this a problem? God did not plan out the universe as such , he put it into motion in the knowledge that free will beings would result. He created the universe in such a way that this would be inevitable.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why is this a problem? God did not plan out the universe as such , he put it into motion in the knowledge that free will beings would result. He created the universe in such a way that this would be inevitable.

But he could not possibly have interacted with the universe in a meaningful way. For example, he could not have placed a star in the heavens prior to Jesus' birth because he did not know for sure that Mary would decide to go to that particular inn. With her free will she could have gone elsewhere. He could not place the stars location based on her decision because he placing the star alters the timeline and thus alters her decision.
It may be a bad example but what I am saying is that God simply cannot interact with the timeline in a way that shows foreknowledge as that creates information loops which are paradoxical. We might as well say that God actually knows nothing about the universe because for him it is still the moment of creation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But he could not possibly have interacted with the universe in a meaningful way. For example, he could not have placed a star in the heavens prior to Jesus' birth because he did not know for sure that Mary would decide to go to that particular inn. With her free will she could have gone elsewhere. He could not place the stars location based on her decisio ...[text shortened]... d actually knows nothing about the universe because for him it is still the moment of creation.

But what if Mary had handed over her life to God and allowed God (by her own free will) to direct her life in a particular way. Christian doctrine as I understand it allows for a person to surrender their own will to God's will this allowing God to take control at certain points.

Moments like this are known sometimes as "divine appointments" where a person is willingly being used by God to fulfil his plan. In such a scenario Mary;s whereabouts would not be as unpredictable as you might think.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But what if Mary had handed over her life to God and allowed God (by her own free will) to direct her life in a particular way. Christian doctrine as I understand it allows for a person to surrender their own will to God's will this allowing God to take control at certain points.

Moments like this are known sometimes as "divine appointments" where ...[text shortened]... plan. In such a scenario Mary;s whereabouts would not be as unpredictable as you might think.

But my argument remains intact even if you are correct. God would not have placed the star above the Inn based on knowledge of future events but based on his own plan to make Mary go where he chooses. God simply cannot and could not use future events known to him based on his own experience of them in order to make decisions about the present (or past). This includes all prophesy ie any prophesy must necessarily be a prediction that God ensures comes true and not a prediction of future events known to God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But my argument remains intact even if you are correct. God would not have placed the star above the Inn based on knowledge of future events but based on his own plan to make Mary go where he chooses. God simply cannot and could not use future events known to him based on his own experience of them in order to make decisions about the present (or past). T ...[text shortened]... be a prediction that God ensures comes true and not a prediction of future events known to God.

I don't think the star was there in advance , I think it's the other way round. God engineered the situation so that it would all work together.

There is a difference though between prophesy and pre-destining something specific to happen. In Mary's case there is a specific plan to be kept to which entails God forces the situation somewhat. However, if the prophesy is concenring something that is not specific then it's not a problem.

For example , on the day in question Mary will do something ( let's say she decides to juggle olives) and that something (WHATEVER it is) will be known and could be prophesised. It's only with a specific plan that your model applies.

In one case God has to force things to fit with his plan , in the other he doesn't have to force anything because he just watches Mary juggling.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't think the star was there in advance , I think it's the other way round. God engineered the situation so that it would all work together.

There is a difference though between prophesy and pre-destining something specific to happen. In Mary's case there is a specific plan to be kept to which entails God forces the situation somewhat. However, ...[text shortened]... n , in the other he doesn't have to force anything because he just watches Mary juggling.

I am still not sure if you get my point.
Even if God knows the future as you claim, it is irrelevant. His knowledge has nothing to do with this universe and in no way affects this universe or can be used by him to interfere in the events in this universe. To say that he knows 'now' the events of the future is wrong because the him that knows the future is not present now but is in some existence external to the universe. You try to pretend that he is an entity that both exists externally to the universe and throughout the universe, but whatever parts of him exist within the universe cannot know the future.