1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 14:15
    The argument that free will and God's omniscience (FW v O) are logically contradictory can be countered in many ways. Here's another way of looking at things.

    The argument rests on the idea that God can ONLY know our future choices if they are pre-determined in some way.

    BUT .....let's think about this..

    If God really did exist as eternal , omniscient and omnipresent how could he NOT know your tomorrow?

    You could have as much free will and choice as you like and make any one of a million potential choices , he will still know. How couldn't he?

    My counter question is this. How could one prevent an eternal omniscient God from not knowing your future?

    Do we really think we can "trick" God because we have many choices? If we made truely random choices would that mean that God would be at a loss?

    Of course not , he sees tomorrow like he sees everything. He cannot be prevented from knowing. Thus it matters not whether our choices are random , free or determined - there's no way he cannot know -

    He just HAS to know!
  2. Cape Town
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    17 Feb '09 14:39
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If God really did exist as eternal , omniscient and omnipresent how could he NOT know your tomorrow?

    You could have as much free will and choice as you like and make any one of a million potential choices , he will still know. How couldn't he?
    As always, unless you give some clarification to what you mean by the key words, there can be no discussion. What do you understand by:
    Eternal
    Omnipresent
    Omniscient
    Free will
  3. England
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    17 Feb '09 14:45
    we build houses from the bottem knowing the roof will be done in its time.the way the home looks from bedrooms to livingrooms are done in the design of the things. god sets out life knowing the end will come in its time the choise is ours how we get from our birth to death to birth
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 17:14
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    As always, unless you give some clarification to what you mean by the key words, there can be no discussion. What do you understand by:
    Eternal
    Omnipresent
    Omniscient
    Free will
    Those who claim that FW and O are contradcitory offer no such defintions but seem very sure of theior position. Why don't you ask them?
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    17 Feb '09 17:221 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Those who claim that FW and O are contradcitory offer no such defintions but seem very sure of theior position. Why don't you ask them?
    We know the definitions and the implications of such...you don't, and fail to understand them given numerous different attempts at explaining them to you.
    So we would like you to give us your fuzzy-wuzzy definitions such that we can correct them.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 17:27
    Originally posted by Agerg
    We know the definitions and the implications of such...you don't, and fail to understand them given numerous different attempts at explaining them to you.
    So we would like you to give us your fuzzy-wuzzy definitions such that we can correct them.
    Eternal - Boundless , beyond time , everlasting , no beginning or end
    Omniscient - All knowing , knows everything
    Omnipresent - Present everywhere , all points in time also

    ...........in agreement so far?

    If so address the post instead of raising objections. How can God not know? (even if we had free will)
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 17:34
    As an addition to the opening post it's also interesting to think about God as an entity who "boxes us in" by his very nature. For example , we are "boxed in" by his eternal nature and his presence in our future and past.

    However , we try we cannot "get ahead" of his eternity. Whatever we choose tomorrow he's got that base covered because he's there in tomorrow.

    Imagine a time traveller who can go into tomorrow , he needs no "predictions" (agerg's fortune teller) he just travels in time. Whatever we choose tomorrow he's gonna know. He HAS to know. No predictions or predetermined actions necessary - just eyes. Free will would make no difference - we are boxed in by his ability to time travel - he's got us beat.
  8. Donationbuckky
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    17 Feb '09 17:41
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The argument that free will and God's omniscience (FW v O) are logically contradictory can be countered in many ways. Here's another way of looking at things.

    The argument rests on the idea that God can ONLY know our future choices if they are pre-determined in some way.

    BUT .....let's think about this..

    If God really did exist as eternal , ...[text shortened]... re random , free or determined - there's no way he cannot know -

    He just HAS to know!
    What if God decided not to know the future of man's destiny ? It's more fun not to know the ending.
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    17 Feb '09 17:56
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The argument that free will and God's omniscience (FW v O) are logically contradictory can be countered in many ways. Here's another way of looking at things.

    The argument rests on the idea that God can ONLY know our future choices if they are pre-determined in some way.

    BUT .....let's think about this..

    If God really did exist as eternal , ...[text shortened]... re random , free or determined - there's no way he cannot know -

    He just HAS to know!
    You might be interested in:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/#1

    [Let T = "you will answer the telephone at 9am tomorrow" -SG]

    Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism

    (1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
    (2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
    (3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
    (4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
    (5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
    (6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
    (7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
    (8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
    (9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
    (10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
  10. weedhopper
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    17 Feb '09 18:05
    The free will vs. God's omniscience won't be settled here, but since everyone is throwing out hypotheses:
    Yes--God HAS to know everything even before it happens. We can't "trick" him. If we pray for something to change and it does, it was part of His grand plan anyway. Thus, the way most people define free will, I'd say our human level of that commodity is a bit low.
    Fortunately, there are better ways to define free will, and this has been done by far greater minds than mine.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 19:02
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    The free will vs. God's omniscience won't be settled here, but since everyone is throwing out hypotheses:
    Yes--God HAS to know everything even before it happens. We can't "trick" him. If we pray for something to change and it does, it was part of His grand plan anyway. Thus, the way most people define free will, I'd say our human level of that comm ...[text shortened]... re better ways to define free will, and this has been done by far greater minds than mine.
    Yes--God HAS to know everything even before it happens.
    -----------------------floyd----------------------------

    No , he knows after it happens , it's just that he has this knowledge for all eternity - past and present. Until you do it he cannot know.
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    17 Feb '09 19:161 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Yes--God HAS to know everything even before it happens.
    -----------------------floyd----------------------------

    No , he knows after it happens , it's just that he has this knowledge for all eternity - past and present. Until you do it he cannot know.
    No , he knows after it happens , it's just that he has this knowledge for all eternity - past and present. Until you do it he cannot know.

    Implies there exists a point when God didn't know what you'd do, hence not omniscient.
  13. Cape Town
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    17 Feb '09 19:25
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    The free will vs. God's omniscience won't be settled here, but since everyone is throwing out hypotheses:
    It is settled, some people just cant understand or accept it. Some people are not throwing out hypothesis but clear indisputable logic. SwissGambit for example was not hypothesizing in the post prior to yours.
  14. Standard memberAgerg
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    17 Feb '09 19:301 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Eternal - Boundless , beyond time , everlasting , no beginning or end
    Omniscient - All knowing , knows everything
    Omnipresent - Present everywhere , all points in time also

    ...........in agreement so far?

    If so address the post instead of raising objections. How can God not know? (even if we had free will)
    I made such a topic a while ago but what the hell do you mean by beyond time and everlasting???
    Please give us a strict, unambiguous, coherent definition of the property: being everlasting and timeless lest we think it is some silly nonsense you made up because you need to clutch at it when your arguments are takig a pounding.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
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    17 Feb '09 19:42
    Originally posted by Agerg
    No , he knows after it happens , it's just that he has this knowledge for all eternity - past and present. Until you do it he cannot know.

    Implies there exists a point when God didn't know what you'd do, hence not omniscient.
    I think my wording may have misled you. What I am trying very hard to get across is that it's not a matter of FOREknowledge. We must not imagine that God is looking along time like some grand fortune teller.

    The point is this. Let's say I buy a cake tomorrow (instead of a bun). When I go into the shop at that moment in time there is a real possibility that either cake or bun will be chosen. AND God is with me watching this moment.

    In one sense he is waiting to see what I "will" do and he really doesn't know what I "will" choose. However, what he does know is what I "DID" choose because he is not stuck in time.

    Now for the tricky bit. How does God both know and not know at the same time? This can only make sense with the trinity. Christ (God)is present with us within time on earth via the Spirit , but his Father (God)is also in eternity. Christ with us , travelling with us through time does not know what we will do , but his Father does know. This does sound a wierd idea but it does have Biblical precedent as there are occasions when Christ says things like "the Son does not know the appointed time but the Father who knows all things knows..."
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