Originally posted by knightmeisterI'm sorry, but your argument just seems circular: (1) There's no way God can be prevented from knowing (2) Therefore, there's no way he cannot know. Doesn't seem like a very good argument.
The argument that free will and God's omniscience (FW v O) are logically contradictory can be countered in many ways. Here's another way of looking at things.
The argument rests on the idea that God can ONLY know our future choices if they are pre-determined in some way.
BUT .....let's think about this..
If God really did exist as eternal , ...[text shortened]... re random , free or determined - there's no way he cannot know -
He just HAS to know!
But anyway, I was wondering why would an omniscient being necessarily know the truth values of propositions about the future? If your bizarre notion of libertarian freedom is true, then our future free choices are metaphysically random. Perhaps, then, propositions about our future free choices do not have determinate truth values. Then how would it be possible to know them? Omniscience would only extend to knowing all those and only those truth values that are possible to know.
I'm guessing you'll have some time warp/time machine answer about how God has already "seen" our choices play out in eternity. If so, spare me the nonsense.
3 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterNot tricky at all...your introduction of Christ is useless padding. You said it yourself that "his Father" knows.
I think my wording may have misled you. What I am trying very hard to get across is that it's not a matter of FOREknowledge. We must not imagine that God is looking along time like some grand fortune teller.
The point is this. Let's say I buy a cake tomorrow (instead of a bun). When I go into the shop at that moment in time there is a real possibil he Son does not know the appointed time but the Father who knows all things knows..."
Either there exists an instant where "his Father" doesn't know what I'll do (it is correct to use this word because "his Father" sees the entire timeline, and can certainly focus on a point prior to me doing something) and hence not omniscient, or for all times "his Father" knows what I will do (and this would be true at and before the creation of a universe for me to do it in) hence no free-will.
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo, just to sum up, both the following are true: (1) God knows your future choices and (2) it is not the case that God knows your future choices.
I think my wording may have misled you. What I am trying very hard to get across is that it's not a matter of FOREknowledge. We must not imagine that God is looking along time like some grand fortune teller.
The point is this. Let's say I buy a cake tomorrow (instead of a bun). When I go into the shop at that moment in time there is a real possibil ...[text shortened]... he Son does not know the appointed time but the Father who knows all things knows..."
Well, anyone have any questions? Thanks for the great insight, knightmeister.
Originally posted by LemonJellonope...seems pretty straightforward and coherent to me! 🙄😕
So, just to sum up, both the following are true: (1) God knows your future choices and (2) it is not the case that God knows your future choices.
Well, anyone have any questions? Thanks for the great insight, knightmeister.
Originally posted by knightmeisterThis does nothing to solve the dilemma. Christ-God, once you deprive him of his omniscience, becomes irrelevant to the question at hand. There is still the problem that if Father-God infallibly knows everything that you will do, then you do not have libertarian free will, because you cannot do otherwise than what you will do.
Now for the tricky bit. How does God both know and not know at the same time? This can only make sense with the trinity. Christ (God)is present with us within time on earth via the Spirit , but his Father (God)is also in eternity. Christ with us , travelling with us through time does not know what we will do , but his Father does know. This does sound ...[text shortened]... s like "the Son does not know the appointed time but the Father who knows all things knows..."
Originally posted by LemonJelloSo, just to sum up, both the following are true: (1) God knows your future choices and (2) it is not the case that God knows your future choices. -------lemon------------------
So, just to sum up, both the following are true: (1) God knows your future choices and (2) it is not the case that God knows your future choices.
Well, anyone have any questions? Thanks for the great insight, knightmeister.
Correction - (1) God (the Father) knows your future choices and (2) it is not the case that God (Christ) knows your future choices.
Now , if you think about it , anyone who is a christian has to believe this for at least one instance in the Bible (when Jesus is surprised by the centurion's faith). In this instance (God)Christ does not know what's about to happen but (God) the Father does.
The fact that you choose wilfully not to consider that there may be something in my argument is your decision. You have probably pre-decided your position on this a long time ago. I probably should have foreseen it.
Originally posted by SwissGambitYou can choose to do whatever you like at point X in time it's not set in stone. How does the fact that God knows point X in time eternally stop you from being free?
This does nothing to solve the dilemma. Christ-God, once you deprive him of his omniscience, becomes irrelevant to the question at hand. There is still the problem that if Father-God infallibly knows everything that you will do, then you do not have libertarian free will, because you cannot do otherwise than what you will do.
Consider this , you could choose anything you like at that point and God is going to know it , so it makes no difference. As long as at that point in time YOU don't know and YOU are still choosing then you are free.
The misconception is that you think that God knows what you "will" do as if there is some great Newtonian clock that applies to you and God . That's not true. Time is relative. Your future is as the past to God. He doesn't know what you "will" do , in a very real sense your death was a trillion years ago for him. He knows what you "HAVE" done.
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are merely talking about pseudo/illusionary free-will. If your God knows that I did X before (from my perspective) it is time to do X then I have no choice other than to do X...I simply don't know in advance that X is what I must choose
You can choose to do whatever you like at point X in time it's not set in stone. How does the fact that God knows point X in time eternally stop you from being free?
Consider this , you could choose anything you like at that point and God is going to know it , so it makes no difference. As long as at that point in time YOU don't know and YOU are st real sense your death was a trillion years ago for him. He knows what you "HAVE" done.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI disagree-- I think He knows everything before it happens.
Yes--God HAS to know everything even before it happens.
-----------------------floyd----------------------------
No , he knows after it happens , it's just that he has this knowledge for all eternity - past and present. Until you do it he cannot know.
Originally posted by AgergThe problem here is time based language and how we use it.
Not tricky at all...your introduction of Christ is useless padding. You said it yourself that "his Father" knows.
Either there exists an instant where "his Father" doesn't know what I'll [b]do (it is correct to use this word because "his Father" sees the entire timeline, and can certainly focus on a point prior to me doing something) and hence not omnisci ...[text shortened]... true at and before the creation of a universe for me to do it in) hence no free-will.[/b]
To say "God knows what we will do" subtly suggests that God is present at a particular point in time PRIOR to the future and somehow looking INTO the future. This is not the case.
Take the following sentence...
"God knows eternally all the choices you have already made (from His perspective)) in your future. He knows what you DID with your future."
Now , a sentence like this sounds a bit strange at first but in reality it is a more accurate refelction than the other sentence. Why? Because it illustrates HOW God knows your future. He knows it as a past event.
This is just how you know Hitler's future because for you it is the past. Now notice something strange here. One could say that you know what Hitler is going to do "before" he does it , but actually if you had a time machine it wouldn't feel like that because for you it would simply be what Hitler had DONE.
The important thing is to realise that in these arguments we all have unconsciously subscribed to some overarching grand Newtonian clock called "time" . What you need to do mentally is re-evaluate this and consider time as relative.
Your future is God's past. We are viewing time from two perspectives at the same time. God does always know what you DID with your future and is thus omniscient. However , if you don't do X then he cannot know X. If Hitler does not invade Poland it's impossible for us to know that as a historical fact.
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou may deem my argument circular but can you logically prove that an eternal omnisicent God would somehow have his knowledge obscured by free will?
I'm sorry, but your argument just seems circular: (1) There's no way God can be prevented from knowing (2) Therefore, there's no way he cannot know. Doesn't seem like a very good argument.
But anyway, I was wondering why would an omniscient being necessarily know the truth values of propositions about the future? If your bizarre notion of libertarian ...[text shortened]... God has already "seen" our choices play out in eternity. If so, spare me the nonsense.
1)It's logical to assume that an omniscient eternal God would be able to know about all points on a timeline like ours.
2) Therefore if God can really do this (and by definition he should be able to) then how is free will going to stop his knowledge?
3) Are we saying that because choice X is free and could have been choice Y then God could not know choice X eternally?
Originally posted by AgergYou are merely talking about pseudo/illusionary free-will. If your God knows that I did X before (from my perspective) it is time to do X then I have no choice other than to do X...I simply don't know in advance that X is what I must choose
You are merely talking about pseudo/illusionary free-will. If your God knows that I did X before (from my perspective) it is time to do X then I have no choice other than to do X...I simply don't know in advance that X is what I [b]must choose[/b]
----------------------------agerg-----------------------------------
God does not know you did X before you did it . You have to do X to make X real. If you don't do X then God doesn't know about X. X is not set in advance for you. You can choose Y if you like and then God will always know for eternity that you did Y.
You see you have placed God in your constricted vision of your own timeline by saying " If your God knows that I did X before (from my perspective) " You are saying God knows what's going to happen before it happens , whereas he ACTUALLY knows what HAS happened after it happens , but also in eternity.
You see once you get to point X in time that's the point where you will choose X or Y , because God knows you chose X does not mean that Y was never possible. If you had chosen Y then X was always possible etc etc. The fact that X is known (because you freely chose it) does not mean that X is what you "must choose" . It just means that X is inevitably what you DID choose in the end.
It could have been Y that you chose and God would know that as well (because how could he not) but although it would be true to say that that your choice was Y , this would not exclude X as a possibility.
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeistermeh...I can't be bothered with this garbage any more. I have asked you to define what is this state of "beyond time/everlasting" your God exists in because your failure to understand what you are talking about blinds you to the implications that must follow from an omniscient God. You're like a frickin cactuar from the final fantasy games.
The problem here is time based language and how we use it.
To say "God knows what we will do" subtly suggests that God is present at a particular point in time PRIOR to the future and somehow looking INTO the future. This is not the case.
Take the following sentence...
"God knows eternally all the choices you have already made (from His per er does not invade Poland it's impossible for us to know that as a historical fact.
When you challenged me earlier to explain how I knew your god didn't exist I should have just said
You wouldn't understand
I'll never get that time back I just wasted on you ðŸ˜