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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 13:52 / 2 edits
    No one to my recollection, has ever refuted this observation. In Zechariah 2:8-11 shows Jehovah God is both the Sender and the One Sent.

    Therefore it is a clear window into the triune nature of God in the Old Testament.

    Let's see if anyone will attempt to disprove this now. (Details below)
  2. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:00 / 3 edits
    Zechariah 2:8-11, Recovery Version:

    " For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8)

    For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me. (v.9)

    Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah. (v.10)

    And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)



    1.) The One speaking is Jehovah of hosts.
    2.) The One being sent is Jehovah.
    3.) The One Who Sent this One is Jehovah.

    The Triune God is indicated in this Old Testament passage.
  3. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    28 Apr '18 14:11
    'Trinitarians often try to "make hay" out of unclear translations, translators' indistinct use of punctuation marks, and ignoring standard Hebrew discourse structures. In fact, this is the standard practice for Trinitarian arguments. Every Trinitarian "proof text" must ignore explicit statements of Scripture and appeal to obscure language or grammatically vague verses because there is absolutely no real Scriptural evidence for the Trinity.

    In Zec.2:8-13, Trinitarians confuse the words of the prophet with the words of Jehovah. This is due to reading their theology into the Bible (eisegesis) and also ignoring standard Hebrew discourse structures. If you bothered to take note of the reading in the Amplified Bible you'd see that it is Jehovah who says he will reside with Israel, but then Jehovah *sends* "His messenger" who prefigured Jesus.

    AMP: “For thus said the Lord of hosts, after [His] glory had sent me [His messenger] to the nations who plundered you--for he who touches you touches the apple or pupil of His eye: 9 Behold, I will swing my hand over them and they shall become plunder for those who served them. Then you shall know (recognize and understand) that the Lord of hosts has sent me [His messenger]. 10 Sing and rejoice, O Daughter of Zion; for behold, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of you, says the Lord. 11 And many nations shall join themselves to the Lord in that day and shall be My people. And I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know (recognize and understand) that the Lord of hosts has sent me [His messenger] to you.”

    Many other translations also show that it was God's representative who said "Jehovah sent me" and not Jehovah by using periods or semi-colons (NRSV, NJB, ACV, JPS, NWT).

    In fact, Zec.2:3 tells us explicitly that it was an angel speaking for God. Also, many scholars feel that the one "sent" here was actually "the angel of the LORD/Jehovah." The Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitzsch state:

    "[In vs8] The sender is Jehovah, and the person sent is not the prophet, but the angel of the Lord....The speaker is still the angel of the Lord...in v. 11. By the execution of this judgment Israel would learn that Jehovah had sent His angel, namely to execute upon the heathen His saving purposes for Israel....2:10-11 The daughter Zion is to rejoice at this sending of the angel of the Lord. V. 10. "Exult and rejoice, O daughter Zion: for, behold, I come, and dwell in the midst of thee, is the saying of Jehovah. V. 11...The Lord comes to her in His angel, in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..."

    So, Hebrew scholars recognize that Jehovah did not send Jehovah, but Jehovah sent His representative who speaks for Him. Jehovah "resides" with humans by means of His representatives, not because He literally will live on earth (1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6).'


    @BibleResearch
  4. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    28 Apr '18 14:17
    Originally posted by @sonship
    No one to my recollection, has ever refuted this observation. In [b]Zechariah 2:8-11 shows Jehovah God is both the Sender and the One Sent.

    Therefore it is a clear window into the triune nature of God in the Old Testament.

    Let's see if anyone will attempt to disprove this now. (Details below)[/b]
    The book itself refutes you:

    'While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him..' (Zechariah 2-3)
  5. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Trinitarians often try to "make hay" out of unclear translations, translators' indistinct use of punctuation marks, and ignoring standard Hebrew discourse structures. In fact, this is the standard practice for Trinitarian arguments. Every Trinitarian "proof text" must ignore explicit statements of Scripture and appeal to obscure language or grammat ...[text shortened]... entatives, not because He literally will live on earth (1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6).'


    @BibleResearch
    Should we take this as your argument?
    Or are you sending me off to debate some other writer who is not here?

    Your argument above which you too own ??
  6. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    28 Apr '18 14:21
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Should we take this as your argument?
    Or are you sending me off to debate some other writer who is not here?

    Your argument above which you too own ??
    Fine. Just deal with:

    'While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him..' (Zechariah 2-3)
  7. Subscriber divegeester
    Naughtius Maximus
    28 Apr '18 14:22
    Originally posted by @sonship
    No one to my recollection, has ever refuted this observation. In [b]Zechariah 2:8-11 shows Jehovah God is both the Sender and the One Sent.

    Therefore it is a clear window into the triune nature of God in the Old Testament.

    Let's see if anyone will attempt to disprove this now. (Details below)[/b]
    I have no argument in agreeing that you are polytheist.
  8. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    28 Apr '18 14:23
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Should we take this as your argument?
    Or are you sending me off to debate some other writer who is not here
    Oh the irony.
  9. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:28 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    The book itself refutes you:

    'While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him..' (Zechariah 2-3)
    The book itself refutes you:

    'While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him..' (Zechariah 2-3)


    Zechariah 2:1-3

    "Then I lifted up my eyes and I looked, and there was a man, and in His hand was a measuring line. (v.1)

    And I said Where are you going? And He said to me, To measure Jerusalem, to see how great its breadth is and how great its length is. (v.2)

    Then at that point the angel who spoke with me went forth and another angel came forth to meet him." (v.3)


    I have noticed this.
    I have gone through every passage in Zechariah, the whole book, to make sure the belief I propose about chapter 2 was reasonable.

    When it was first presented to me, I tested it.
    Comments on 2:3 below here.
  10. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:34
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Fine. Just deal with:

    'While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him..' (Zechariah 2-3)
    You do not specify HOW Zechariah 2:3 refutes Jehovah God sending Jehovah God in verses 8 through 11.

    Rather than expect me to make YOUR argument, explain how 2:3 is seen by you to refute God sending God in 8-11.
  11. 28 Apr '18 14:36
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    I have no argument in agreeing that you are polytheist.
    It seems the monotheistic concept of unity in diversity simply eludes you.
  12. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:40 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    I have no argument in agreeing that you are polytheist.
    Would you quote me that I said that there is more than one God? You have about 8 or so years of material to draw from here.

    And, if it is OK for you to call me a polytheist, then it is okay for me to call you a Unitarian?
  13. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    28 Apr '18 14:41
    Originally posted by @sonship
    You do not specify HOW [b]Zechariah 2:3 refutes Jehovah God sending Jehovah God in verses 8 through 11.

    Rather than expect me to make YOUR argument, explain how 2:3 is seen by you to refute God sending God in 8-11.[/b]
    But you just said 'I have noticed this.'

    Why not simply deal with what you have noticed? Why do I need to elaborate on the clear evidence that it was an angel speaking to him? It's right there in front of you sonship.
  14. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    28 Apr '18 14:47 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    But you just said 'I have noticed this.'

    Why not simply deal with what you have noticed? Why do I need to elaborate on the clear evidence that it was an angel speaking to him? It's right there in front of you sonship.
    I don't see how the second angel mentioned in verse 3 makes it NOT true that:

    1.) The speaker in verse 8 is Jehovah of hosts.

    "For thus says Jehovah of hosts ..."


    2.) The One Who sent this Speaker is also Jehovah of hosts (v.9).

    " ... and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me."


    How does 2:3 make both the speaker and the one sent not Jehovah of hosts?
  15. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    28 Apr '18 14:51
    Originally posted by @sonship
    I don't see how the second angel mentioned in verse 3 makes it NOT true that:

    [b] 1.)
    The speaker in verse 8 is Jehovah of hosts.

    "For thus says Jehovah of hosts ..."


    2.) The One Who sent this Speaker is also Jehovah of hosts (v.9).

    " ... and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent M ...[text shortened]... /b]


    How does [b]2:3
    make both the speaker and the one sent not Jehovah of hosts?[/b]
    As already referenced:

    Zec.2:3 tells us explicitly that it was an angel speaking for God. Also, many scholars feel that the one "sent" here was actually "the angel of the LORD/Jehovah." The Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitzsch state:

    "[In vs8] The sender is Jehovah, and the person sent is not the prophet, but the angel of the Lord....The speaker is still the angel of the Lord...in v. 11. By the execution of this judgment Israel would learn that Jehovah had sent His angel, namely to execute upon the heathen His saving purposes for Israel....2:10-11 The daughter Zion is to rejoice at this sending of the angel of the Lord. V. 10. "Exult and rejoice, O daughter Zion: for, behold, I come, and dwell in the midst of thee, is the saying of Jehovah. V. 11...The Lord comes to her in His angel, in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..."

    So, Hebrew scholars recognize that Jehovah did not send Jehovah, but Jehovah sent His representative who speaks for Him. Jehovah "resides" with humans by means of His representatives, not because He literally will live on earth (1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6).'