Originally posted by sonship
I did not do the translation from Greek to English.
At this time I will not delve into the grammatical issue you raise without looking into it from several professional translator's points of view.

However, the Recovery Version that I quoted seems not to be alone that its editorial staff considers the translation good.

New Internation He made Himself equal with God (Joh 5:18).

you have not answered the question. Why, because if you do, you will learn that the translation is not an accurate portrayal of the Greek text and the only reason that you and your biased translators accept the verse as it is, is because of a deeply rooted religious prejudice. I am not surprised that you had neither the honesty nor the integrity to answer the question. When you do, you may let the forum know.

it remains unanswered,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

If anyone else can display more honesty and integrity than sonship, please let me know.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58

let us take at look at this and ask you a brief question.

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

Wow. Where I come from this verse is not questioned in so ungodly a manner. And why in the world do you keep using the word 'you'? Did jaywill write the Bible?

First of all, what kind of grades did you get in English grammar? 'Before Abraham was' is a prepositional phrase (the hint is the preposition 'before' ) and can therefore be placed anywhere in any sentence wherever you might place an object, therefore the entire predicate is the word 'am' which is the verb. As to present tense vs. past tense, God uses 'am' in I AM to signify that God is NEVER to be considered in the past tense. God IS... now, and then, and yet. Had He said I WAS, atheists would jump on this saying "well, maybe he WAS, but he's not NOW". I suspect God knows what He's doing, even though you may disagree.

Why must you place limits on God?? (YECs make this same mistake.)

you have not answered the question. Why, because if you do, you will learn that the translation is not an accurate portrayal of the Greek text and the only reason that you and your biased translators accept the verse as it is, is because of a deeply rooted religious prejudice. I am not surprised that you had neither the honesty nor the integrity to answer the question. When you do, you may let the forum know.

You accuse me of dishonesty when I honestly replied thus:

At this time I will not delve into the grammatical issue you raise without looking into it from several professional translator's points of view.

Where is the dishonesty ?

Then I followed with about 19 reputable English versions of the Bible. I suppose all of them are produced by translators inferior to you. Only you could have the proper unbiased rendering?

No collusion here. Just diverse, varied, multiple groups of scholars which you with paranoid suspicion universally indict with incompetence and prejudice.

Then I followed with a scholar's opinion as to the English meaning of the Greek which renders your Arian polytheism null and void.

You'd been better off complaining that the post was too wordy and you wouldn't read it !

Originally posted by Suzianne
Wow. Where I come from this verse is not questioned in so ungodly a manner. And why in the world do you keep using the word 'you'? Did jaywill write the Bible?

First of all, what kind of grades did you get in English grammar? 'Before Abraham was' is a prepositional phrase (the hint is the preposition 'before' ) and can therefore be placed anywhere in ay disagree.

Why must you place limits on God?? (YECs make this same mistake.)

why dont you ANSWER the QUESTION?

in ENGLISH, we do not say, 'the dardkside hard to see ,is', not unless of course you are some kind of Yoda from the planet Dagobah! Equally we do not say, 'First in line, I am', or, 'Hungry, I am' and its therefore equally improper to say, 'before Abraham came to be, I am', its a nonsense in fact. I dont know where you got your qualifications from, but i would ask for my money back at the door if i were you. In elementary English we know that a sentence structure has, in order, a subject, a verb, an object or a predicate phrase.

Thus in the case of 'Abraham came to be, I am,', it should be for anyone with even an elementary grasp of English grammar to see that the predicate phrase, 'before Abraham came to be', should be moved to the end of the sentence, the question therefore remains unanswered and you have not answered it except with the usual attempt to impose exegesis on language in accord with your religious bias.

For your education, there are two verb tenses in the sentence, one 'am', in the present tense and the other, 'came to be', in the past (aorist) tense. In most sentences where we see a past tense verb and present tense verb we assume that the action of the past tense verb took place earlier in time than the present tense verb, for example, 'John wrote the book that I am reading', 'wrote', having happened before 'am reading'.

In the case of John 8:58, this is not the case, Why? because the preposition, 'before', co ordinates the relationship between the two actions presented by the verbs. The preposition tells us that the action in the present tense (am) happened, began to happen or is happening, BEFORE, the action of the verb in the past tense, 'came to be'. When verb tenses are used outside of the usual way in grammar, this is termed idiomatic and because Greek idioms are different from English idioms translators do not translate the terms word for word, but rather convey the meaning of the term or phrase.

The fact of the matter is, it is ungrammatical for something referred to with a present tense verb 'am', to occur earlier than with something described with a past tense verb, 'came to be'.

To explain it as you have attempted to do with silly references to Gods 'never to be considered in the past tense', and references to atheists is nonsensical and deserves to be mocked, however, we do not, or rather should not translate with any kind of religious bias, here you are simply aping what your translators have done and imposing your religious bias on scripture where none exists in the passage.

An accurate translation according to proper English grammar and taking into consideration the Greek idiom, is,

'I was in existence before Abraham was ever born', Living Bible, this gives both the sense of the Greek idiom and is grammatically sound.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] you have not answered the question. Why, because if you do, you will learn that the translation is not an accurate portrayal of the Greek text and the only reason that you and your biased translators accept the verse as it is, is because of a deeply rooted religious prejudice. I am not surprised that you had neither the honesty nor the integrity to a
You'd been better off complaining that the post was too wordy and you wouldn't read it !

At this time I will not delve into the grammatical issue you raise - sonship.

You have still failed to answer the question and your many references to so called professionals and equally religiously biased translations makes absolutely no difference, the Word of God is the word of God and should not and will not be made subject to extra biblical neo platonic paganism, we shall root it out ruthlessly.

So again,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why dont you ANSWER the QUESTION?

in ENGLISH, we do not say, 'the dardkside hard to see ,is', not unless of course you are some kind of Yoda from the planet Dagobah! Equally we do not say, 'First in line, I am', or, 'Hungry, I am' and its therefore equally improper to say, 'before Abraham came to be, I am', its a nonsense in fact. I dont know whe both the sense of the Greek idiom and is grammatically sound.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

(John 8:42,52-58 NKJV)

Does "I AM" makes sense here in Exodus? "I AM has sent me to you.”


Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

(Exodus 3:13-14 NKJV)

You must keep in mind that they were not speaking English and not everything in other languages translate exactly to make sense in English.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ Are You greater than our father Abraham all say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

(Exodus 3:13-14 NKJV)[/b]

sorry you also have failed to answer the question and no amount of quoting scriptures, references to biased translation or other religiously biased persons can negate the fact. Here it is again,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sorry you also have failed to answer the question and no amount of quoting scriptures, references to biased translation or other religiously biased persons can negate the fact. Here it is again,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

It is put that way because that is the way it is in the Hebrew and Greek, and the English must translate so that both agree and do not contradict each other. Your method of translation make the Holy bible contradict itself. We can't have that.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is put that way because that is the way it is in the Hebrew and Greek, and the English must translate so that both agree and do not contradict each other. Your method of translation make the Holy bible contradict itself. We can't have that.

The Instructor

on the contrary i have explained with reference why an accurate translation is possible, all one needs to do is approach the verse with an unbiased mind. I suspect that is beyond your remit.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
on the contrary i have explained with reference why an accurate translation is possible, all one needs to do is approach the verse with an unbiased mind. I suspect that is beyond your remit.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Where did this happen in scripture?

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Where did this happen in scripture?

The Instructor

when you answer,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

then ill answer your questions.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
when you answer,

why have you put the subject after the predicate which is not the normal word order in English sentences and why are you mixing a present tense verb and a past tense verb in completely ungrammatical fashion?

then ill answer your questions.

Because that is the way it is. Yahshua is saying the He appeared to Abraham for Abraham saw His day. Who was it that talked to Abraham and gave him the promises? Who was that One that Abraham saw?

The answer is that it was the same One that appeared to Moses and said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Because that is the way it is. Yahshua is saying the He appeared to Abraham for Abraham saw His day. Who was it that talked to Abraham and gave him the promises? Who was that One that Abraham saw?

The answer is that it was the same One that appeared to Moses and said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Instructor

still not prepared to answer the question, let me know when you are and ill consider what you have to say. I am uninterested in your religious bias.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
still not prepared to answer the question, let me know when you are and ill consider what you have to say. I am uninterested in your religious bias.

You are the one with the religious bias. And by the way there is no subject after the predicate in the translation or in the Greek itself. So what you say is a strawman argument.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are the one with the religious bias. And by the way there is no subject after the predicate in the translation or in the Greek itself. So what you say is a strawman argument.

The Instructor

I have explained at length with reference, you may make reference to that. It may help you to understand that Greek is a different language from English, a subtle but rather telling difference.