God's Priorities

Originally posted by Kalsen
Well, I do support the All Blacks.

Then you should have no problem. The Kiwis "doth bestride the narrow world [of rugby] like a colossus".

Originally posted by Halitose
Then you should have no problem. The Kiwis "doth bestride the narrow world [of rugby] like a colossus".

And yet, come the World Cup, he will make sure they don't win. Again.

Originally posted by dottewell
And yet, come the World Cup, he will make sure they don't win. Again.

Once was one too many, IMO.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Why DID he, in all his powerfull wisdom see fit to drop a mudslide on a village this week? Or are you just talking crap?

If dj2becker was here, he would tell you that villagers or the forefathers of those villagers were not pleasing God with their Godless ways. Because, of course, the wages of sin is death, right? Just like all those Hindus "starving" in India.

Originally posted by dottewell
So those Rwandans who prayed for civil war to be averted got the answer they needed, i.e. genocide?

I didn't say genocide was the answer they needed.

Perhaps it was the strength to withstand what was happening to them.

Perhaps it was the increasing awareness worldwide of their plight.

Perhaps it was the miracle in those whose lives were spared.

Originally posted by darvlay
If dj2becker was here, he would tell you that villagers or the forefathers of those villagers were not pleasing God with their Godless ways. Because, of course, the wages of sin is death, right? Just like all those Hindus "starving" in India.

Beautiful thing, really, being able to go to God personally, the only mediator being Jesus Christ. If you are unsatisfied with the ambassador, go right to the King. Sometimes the ambassador's relay isn't as effective as desired.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I didn't say genocide was the answer they needed.

Perhaps it was the strength to withstand what was happening to them.

Perhaps it was the increasing awareness worldwide of their plight.

Perhaps it was the miracle in those whose lives were spared.

I'd love you to explain that to them.

Originally posted by dottewell
And yet, come the World Cup, he will make sure they don't win. Again.

Even God can't hold them back forever.

Originally posted by dottewell
I'd love you to explain that to them.

You'd be surprised how much faith they do have. In my experience with Asians and Africans who've faced personal tragedy, their faith only seems to get stronger.

Things do seem to be different in the West, though.

Originally posted by darvlay
Is God more likely to answer a relatively trivial prayer that concerns the well-being of one singular Christian than to answer a prayer that positively affects an entire nation of suffering people?

If so, why would God sooner answer an "easy" prayer than answer a "hard" prayer?

To know why an intelligent entity does something one would have to know all of the contributing factors to the decision being made.
Some things God has told us about, and so we can be sure of the why. Some He hasn't. And since I don't know all of the contributing factors to such a decision, I couldn't possible give an answer that was anything other than a guess.

But, if you want an example of prayer affecting a large populace, you might want to look into what the Catholic church was doing just before the Iron Curtain fell.

DF

Originally posted by lucifershammer
You'd be surprised how much faith they do have. In my experience with Asians and Africans who've faced personal tragedy, their faith only seems to get stronger.

Things do seem to be different in the West, though.

Yes, but you can't give the credit for the "miracle" of some surviving if you don't also hold him responsible for the one million who died.

Originally posted by dottewell
Yes, but you can't give the credit for the "miracle" of some surviving if you don't also hold him responsible for the one million who died.

Why not?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Why not?

Because in deciding to miraculously save some, God either—

(a) decided, at least implicitly, to not save the rest; or

(b) God is capable of saving only a few.

In the first case, he is responsible for his choice; in the second, he is not responsible because of the limits of his power. (Gee, this is old GAFE stuff.)

> >I want to change the example just a bit to a natural disaster, say an earthquake—so we are talking about “natural evil,” not human evil. And, for the rest, assume that (b) is not an option. If it is, and God is not omnipotent, then God cannot be held responsible for what God cannot do.

Now, in giving God credit for the saved, you are assigning God the responsibility of having saved them (well, unless God saved them accidentally and unintentionally). So the question of humans assigning responsibility to God is not a question here.

If you argue that we cannot hold God to human standards of responsibility, then you either have to (i) articulate the different standards of responsibility to which God is held (if any), (ii) assert that God, as God, has no standards, moral or otherwise, or (iii) we cannot know God’s standards.

In the case of (ii), I have no reason to worship or reverence such a God except out of terror (fright). In the case of (iii), we cannot reasonably assign God responsibility for anything, good or bad.

___________________________

Since I am not a “supernatural theist” who believes in supernatural miracles, none of this even pertains. The GAFE is only a problem for such theists.

Originally posted by vistesd
Because in deciding to miraculously save some, God either—

(a) decided, at least implicitly, to not save the rest; or

(b) God is capable of saving only a few.

In the first case, he is responsible for his choice; in the second, he is not responsible because of the limits of his power. (Gee, this is old GAFE stuff.)

> >I want to change th ...[text shortened]... supernatural miracles, none of this even pertains. The GAFE is only a problem for such theists.

Let's stick with moral evil for the moment.

Consider the following cases:

(1) Mike stabs a man, who bleeds to death.
(2) Mike comes across a man who has been stabbed, but does nothing to save him.

You seem to be implying that Mike has the same level of responsibility in the death of the stabbed man in both cases. Clearly, that is not the case.

Now, one can argue that Mike still holds some responsibility in the second case. But how much responsibility? If Mike is a medic on a battlefield who has to make a quick assessment as to the success of saving the man vs. other injured people who can be saved instead, then do you hold him to the same responsibility as if he were a passerby on a road? Note: even medic-Mike can save the man if he chooses to, but at the cost of other lives that will be lost.

As I argued in the GAFE-II thread, I do not hold to the idea of a God with limitless power. I do think there are scenarios (especially involving moral evil) where God is constrained to permit some evil to occur because the "cost" of preventing it is too high; i.e. results in greater evil.

Regarding God's "standards of responsibility", I would say there is a fourth option - we do not completely know God's standards, but we have a reasonable top-level summary. So, while we do not know how God will act in a particular instance, we can know how God would act in general. Indeed, to know how God would act in every particular instance, we would need to be as all-knowing as God is - which we are not. But not-all-knowing is not the same as nothing-knowing.

I observe an "all or nothing" approach when you speak of knowing God (or anything about God) - refer back to our "ineffability" conversation in the other thread.

To receive anything from God, first we need faith. Second, what people pray for is at times not avaliable. There are things that are avaliable and few pray for them. To know what is and is not avaliable one must go to the bible. For example, I can pray for world peace till I am blue in the face, but it is not avaliable. We cannot make peace with Satan, the devil or whatever name you wish to give him. I can pray for wisdom, protection, for more faith, etc. These things can be found in the bible. I can give financially to God through my church, or directly to someone in need and God will bless me in some way. The mission of a Christian is to be more and more like Christ, not self serving prayers. God does not listen to the prayer of the wicked.