Originally posted by RJHinds"The Timing of the Invasion: The events of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 have never taken place in the past since no historical events have matched this prophecy. This invasion of Israel takes place toward the middle of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, after Israel and Antichrist have entered into a treaty and prior to Antichrist breaking the treaty since it is preceded by the casting of Satan out of heaven. Now, the Gog and Magog mentioned here in Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 are not..."
The Gog and Magog invasion of israel we are referring to is from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which is in the last days before the Millennium. You are referring to Revelation 20. Let's not get these two events mixed up.
(Ron, Pastor Wenstrom's detailed explanation on pages 6-7 do indicate the Tribulation with a reference to Russia. Thanks.) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
Originally posted by moonbusmoonbus, please see my reply to RJHinds on page 6 which contains confirmation of the Tribulation
"Diogenes apparently did not understand this teaching of Christ." It was Matthew who did not understand Diogenes, who preceded him by a few hundred years.
"The idea was to provide for the poor according to their need only." To each according to his need--spoken like a devout Marxist!
RE original post, where is Gog Magog? You are looking for danger in ...[text shortened]... e (materialistic) blunder; there is only one source of spiritual danger and it is one's own ego.
with reference to Russia for Ezekiel 38-39 [different from the Gog and Magog of Revelation].
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI understand that many pastors of today have accepted the theory that Russia is the leading nation of the invasion of Israel. However, I believe Turkey may be a better candidate for this leading nation because all the nations clearly mentioned are Islamic nations today and it seems to fit better with all the prophecies as Walid Shoebat points out in the video.
"The Timing of the Invasion: The events of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 have never taken place in the past since no historical events have matched this prophecy. This invasion of Israel takes place toward the middle of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, after Israel and Antichrist have entered into a treaty and prior to Antichrist breaking the treaty since it is preceded ...[text shortened]... a. Thanks.) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
Originally posted by RJHindsIf you haven't already, I'd encourage you to go to Pastor Wenstrom's site text which includes much more on these nations.
I understand that many pastors of today have accepted the theory that Russia is the leading nation of the invasion of Israel. However, I believe Turkey may be a better candidate for this leading nation because all the nations clearly mentioned are Islamic nations today and it seems to fit better with all the prophecies as Walid Shoebat points out in the video.
Gog and Magog were the Nordics and Slavs.
Revelation describes how these northern groups broke apart the universal Christian Church - Roman Catholicisim - at the end of the middle ages via the Protestant Reformation and the Orthodox-Catholic schism - a thousand years after Constantine made the Roman Empire Christian.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThe Millenium was from approximately 400-1400 CE. Christ ruled through the Vatican.
"... but after the Reign of Quantity-modern materialism and the 'rise of the masses'- Guénon predicts a reign of 'inverted quality' just before the end of the age: the triumph of the 'counter-initiation', the kingdom of Antichrist." -moonbus
Cultures preoccupied with materialism will likely characterize "the kingdom of Antichrist" which refers to the ...[text shortened]... Magog Revolution occurs at the end of Christ's reign during the Millennium (1,000 years later).
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely come out of Turkey and the revived Ottoman Empire of Islamic nations.
If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to go to Pastor Wenstrom's site text which includes much more on these nations.
The Seat Of Satan
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/pergamon/
The Altar which was taken away from Pergamon in 1871 and carried to Germany by the German engineer Carl Humann, is exhibited at the Museum of Pergamum in Berlin, in a manner conforming to its original. Today Turkish government is trying to get it back from Germany bringing the issue to the international court.
Originally posted by RJHindsOriginally posted by RJHinds
I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely come out of Turkey and the revived Ottoman Emp ...[text shortened]... mic nations.
The Seat Of Satan
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/pergamon/
"I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely come out of Turkey and the revived Ottoman Empire of Islamic nations.
The Seat Of Satan
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/pergamon/
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"Ezekiel 38-39-The Russian Led Invasion of Israel Introduction: One of the most fascinating prophecies in the Bible is that of the Russian invasion of Israel during the Tribulation period. This Russian led invasion of Israel will take place during the midway point of the Tribulation period, which is also called by students of biblical prophecy, “Daniel’s Seventieth Week.” “Daniel’s Seventieth Week” refers to the last seven of the four hundred ninety prophetic years of Israel’s history, which is called by students of prophecy, “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel” and is recorded in Daniel 9:24-27. A “week” in the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 refers to seven prophetic years of three hundred sixty days; therefore, the prophecy of the seventy weeks of Daniel refers to four hundred ninety prophetic years of Israel’s history." (Page 1)
"The Timing of the Invasion The events of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 have never taken place in the past since no historical events have matched this prophecy. This invasion of Israel takes place toward the middle of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, after Israel and Antichrist have entered into a treaty and prior to Antichrist breaking the treaty since it is preceded by the casting of Satan out of heaven. Now, the Gog and Magog mentioned here in Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 are not the same Gog and Magog of Revelation 20:7-9 that make war against the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of His millennial reign. The conflict involving the Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:7-9 involves armies from all four corners of the globe and is followed by the Great White Throne Judgment of unbelievers (Rev. 20:11-15). Therefore, the prophecy of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 will not be fulfilled at the end of the millennium. Nor will it be fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation and the Armageddon campaign since the invasion of Israel at the end of the Tribulation involves the armies from around the world whereas the invasion in Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 only includes a certain group of nations led by Russia.
Also, the object of the Armageddon invasion is to destroy Israel whereas the invasion of Ezekiel is to take spoil. Furthermore, the invasion of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 will not take place prior to the treaty with Antichrist and thus Daniel’s Seventieth Week, i.e. the Tribulation period. Many contend that the description of Israel found in Ezekiel 38 fits well with the nation of Israel as she is now today, and state that this invasion will take place before the Tribulation and prior to Israel’s treaty with Antichrist. They cite that the meaning of batach in Ezekiel 38:11 indicates that Israel dwells securely due to confidence in their own strength. Today Israel is secure, confident that her army can repel any invasion from the Arab states, thus Israel is dwelling securely in fulfillment of the prophecy in Ezekiel 38:11 of Israel dwelling in unwalled villages. This is very descriptive of the present-day kibbutzim in Israel, they contend. These points can also support the position that the events in Ezekiel 38:1-39:24... (Page 6 to be continued)
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYes, I read all this, but it does not change my mind, since that is old news.
Originally posted by RJHinds
"I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely com ...[text shortened]... ntinued)
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
Originally posted by RJHindsYou mentioned the invasion of Babylon as a criterion for candidacy for all this on page 2. The last country to do that was the US. So...
I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely come out of Turkey and the revived Ottoman Emp ...[text shortened]... government is trying to get it back from Germany bringing the issue to the international court.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"These points can also support the position that the events in Ezekiel 38:1-39:24... ...will take place during the midway point of the Tribulation prior to Antichrist declaring himself to be God. During the first three and a half years of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Israel will be dwelling securely under the treaty with the Antichrist. Batach can also support the idea that Israel has placed her confidence on the military might of the Revived Form of the Roman Empire under the little horn, i.e. Antichrist and not just her own military strength. This is supported historically in that Israel throughout her history has continually trusted in Gentile powers rather than God.
Originally posted by RJHinds
"I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely com ...[text shortened]... ntinued)
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
The second major point made in support of the Russian Invasion taking place after the rapture and prior to the treaty with Antichrist is that Russia is still a major world power before the Tribulation. This point is rather weak since it can support the position that Russia is a major player during the Tribulation. Those who believe that the Russian invasion will take place prior to the treaty with Antichrist and after the rapture contend that placing the invasion at this point resolves the problem of the seven years of burning the Russian weapons in Ezekiel 38:9 and the seven months of burying the Russian dead in Ezekiel 38:12. They state that putting this invasion in the beginning of the Tribulation presents no real problem with the seven months, but it does have problems with the seven years. They say that this would put it at a time when Israel would be in flight and would not have time to finish the burning of the weapons. They contend that the middle of the Tribulation view has problems with both the seven months and the seven years. They say that the seven months would extend into the second half of the Tribulation, a time when Israel has to worry about her own dead, let alone the Russians. Also, they explain that the seven years would extend throughout the rest of the Tribulation and 3½ years into the Millennium, making it inconsistent with the biblical view of the Millennium.
Furthermore, they state if the invasion took place during the midway point of the Tribulation that Israel would need these weapons in the second half of the Tribulation and would not burn them. Therefore, they contend that the events of Ezekiel 38:1-39:24 must take place before the Tribulation since it is the only interpretation, which has no problems with either the seven months or the seven years. They say that the Jews continue to dwell in the Land after this invasion and remain there until the middle of the Tribulation, thus the seven months of burial is no problem. They state that the seven years also creates no problem since they would begin before the Tribulation and can extend as far as the middle of the Tribulation if at all necessary. According to this view, they state this invasion must take place at least 3½ years or more before the Tribulation starts." (Page 7) 2008 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/russian_invasion.pdf
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Originally posted by RJHindsOriginally posted by RJHinds
Yes, I read all this, but it does not change my mind, since that is old news.
Yes, I read all this, but it does not change my mind, since that is old news.
Ron, how old is the Word of God? God's Omniscience was obviously aware of these details and this thread in eternity past.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyRevelations was written sometime between 50-100 CE. According to Revelation 1:2, "The time is near". Since it was written almost two thousand years ago, any thousand year reign whose "time was near" 100 CE must be over. The Millenium must have occurred in the past.
Your biblical source for this interesting claim?
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Originally posted by RJHindsGog and Magog are in the Koran. They aren't the Muslims.
I have read all the reference you gave me. I see that the good pastor is just parroting some old information that mixes truth with error. I am not going to rule out that the Muslim controlled portions of Russia might be involved in this invasion, but I still believe Gog, the antichrist leader, will most likely come out of Turkey and the revived Ottoman Emp ...[text shortened]... government is trying to get it back from Germany bringing the issue to the international court.
This is when Turkey acted as described in that part of the Bible...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople