"Greater love.... "

Originally posted by checkbaiter
God has done something about this, He gave us His Son. When we ask Jesus, to be our Lord, then we are no longer under the dominion of the god of this world. We are subject to Jesus. We are under new management, so to speak. The god of this world no longer has a hold over us unless we allow him to.
That is why we avoid sin. Sin is an invitation to sata ...[text shortened]... rder, etc.
Those who belong to Jesus do what pleases God. Love, exhort, be kind to others, etc.

That is why we avoid sin. Sin is an invitation to satan.
The people of this world do what their god does, sin. They lie, cheat, murder, etc.
Those who belong to Jesus do what pleases God. Love, exhort, be kind to others, etc.

If this was the case, there would be fewer Christians in prison, Christians would be statistically distinct in various metrics concerning these attributes (probably including charitable giving, voluntary work, etc)

I am not aware of any reliable objective evidence that bears this out. Presumably you can provide references?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
That is why we avoid sin. Sin is an invitation to satan.
The people of this world do what their god does, sin. They lie, cheat, murder, etc.
Those who belong to Jesus do what pleases God. Love, exhort, be kind to others, etc.

If this was the case, there would be fewer Christians in prison, Christians would be statistically distinct in various me ...[text shortened]... e objective evidence that bears this out. Presumably you can provide references?

--- Penguin.

Christians are in jail and Christians sin all the time. They have a new nature but many fail to renew their minds as to who they are.
Their minds need to be "reprogrammed" to believe who the bible says they are. In their spirit they have the mind of Christ, the righteousness of God.
I am at work and not much time, I am on lunch, but most charitable giving is done by Christians.
Do you think the god of this world is going to make this common news?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
....... but most charitable giving is done by Christians.

I think you will find it hard to support that on anything other than the fact that most people in the US are Christian (or so I believe).

Do you think the god of this world is going to make this common news?
Well if its a secret only you are privy to, can you share the actual stats, or are you only allowed to share the results? Seems to me you are attempting the "you cannot understand" defense again, except this time its starting to look really shaky - especially given that you revealed the secret answer to us already. How did you sneak that past Satan?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think you will find it hard to support that on anything other than the fact that most people in the US are Christian (or so I believe).

[b]Do you think the god of this world is going to make this common news?
Well if its a secret only you are privy to, can you share the actual stats, or are you only allowed to share the results? Seems to me you ...[text shortened]... ly given that you revealed the secret answer to us already. How did you sneak that past Satan?[/b]

Christian news is not secret, it is just suppressed by the media. There are many good churches where people are healed, the blind see, etc...every week. You just don't hear about it because you don't look nor believe it anyway.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Christian news is not secret, it is just suppressed by the media. There are many good churches where people are healed, the blind see, etc...every week. You just don't hear about it because you don't look nor believe it anyway.

I must note here that I am Zambian, and in Zambia politics is heavily influenced by Christianity, to the point that the country was declared a 'Christian nation'. Such things as prayer healing is not suppressed in Zambia as far as I know, so I am in fact aware of such events.
You are correct however that I don't believe it. There is an extraordinary number of people being healed of their inability to smell, and not one single amputee goes home with a new limb.
I must also point out that somewhere between 20 and 30% of the population have AIDS, which to my knowledge has never been cured by prayer.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that if prayer can heal, then you, and anyone else capable of such healing prayer is guilty of gross negligence as you have allowed millions of people in my country to die of AIDS including some close friends, whilst you stood by and did nothing. Shame on you!

[edit] so if Christian news isn't secret, can you share your source for your claim that Christians are the biggest givers to charity? Or must we just take your word for it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Such things as prayer healing is not suppressed in Zambia as far as I know, so I am in fact aware of such events.

I heard of a Randomized Controlled Trial on faith healing where they had a "genuine" faith healer and a "placebo" faith healer - it was laying on of hands. Both groups did better than expected compared with normal treatment (better than expected means compared with no treatment or normal treatment, which they were getting as well) which is a vindication of both faith healing and the placebo effect. The confounder of course is that in faith healing it is the faith of the supplicant that matters, not the genuineness of the faith healer - which is the same for the placebo effect. As I remember there was no significant difference between the two groups.

As I said, I didn't think you could explain it. None of this remotely addressed the question of why the concept of hell as everlasting torture is required.

If you think your God could not have organised matters so that it avoided the need to torture people for all eternity, then your God is either not omnipotent, or lacks imagination.

The fact that God thinks deciding to torture good people for all eternity is required to preserve his own righteousness just demonstrates how warped this religious view of hell as is.

It is the language of the psychopath.

Out of interest, what do you think happens to people who die before they have ever even heard of Jesus Christ?

Rank Outsider, Have you and I conversed before ?

I try to be concise but sometimes I just have to make longer replies.
Do you read posts which might be longer than just a few lines ?

Originally posted by DeepThought
I heard of a Randomized Controlled Trial on faith healing where they had a "genuine" faith healer and a "placebo" faith healer - it was laying on of hands.

I have heard of such trials. However, checkbaiter said 'the blind see'. In my experience nothing that dramatic ever happens. He claims such stories are 'suppressed in the media', but surely if people were really getting healed of major diseases then a lot more than the media would have taken an interest? And surely the healers involved would also wish to spread their healing around a bit more? I don't think checkbaiter has actually thought it through. However there really is no point asking him more as he will simply fall back to his "you cannot understand because of Satans influence" defence.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I must note here that I am Zambian, and in Zambia politics is heavily influenced by Christianity, to the point that the country was declared a 'Christian nation'. Such things as prayer healing is not suppressed in Zambia as far as I know, so I am in fact aware of such events.
You are correct however that I don't believe it. There is an extraordinary numb ...[text shortened]... im that Christians are the biggest givers to charity? Or must we just take your word for it?

Again you like to lump Christianity into one pot. There are many Churches who call themselves "Christian", but not all are the same, and for a slew of reasons.
Many religious Christians are no different than unbelievers. Most of them are this way because of poor teaching. They cannot know more than they have been taught.
Then we have to consider who did the teaching, etc.
Many "Christians Churches" grossly misrepresent God. As I type this, my mind already is getting a response from you or another unbeliever.
"So they are all teaching false doctrine and only you know the truth."
Am I right?
This forum is not the place and will never convince a skeptic of anything, but I will end by saying this... God has placed eternity in the heart of every human being. You know God is real, you just will not admit it.
I do promise you that if you search for Him with your whole heart, if you cry out for Him, He will reveal Himself to you.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] As I said, I didn't think you could explain it. None of this remotely addressed the question of why the concept of hell as everlasting torture is required.

If you think your God could not have organised matters so that it avoided the need to torture people for all eternity, then your God is either not omnipotent, or lacks imagination.

The fac ...[text shortened]... have to make longer replies.
Do you read posts which might be longer than just a few lines ?

I think we have conversed once or twice. I have no problem with length if the answers are relevant.

To be clear, my questions only relate to hell as a place of eternal torture which can only be avoided by accepting Jesus Christ as a saviour. My questions are:

1 Why is it necessary for hell to be place of torture for all eternity?

2 Given that losing out on a chance of eternal paradise is a pretty big price to pay for not accepting Jesus as a saviour, why it is necessary for God to do anything beyond allowing individuals who do not acccept him to die?

3 Given that most people retain the same religion that they are brought up in, why is it fair to stack the odds in favour of people raised in the Christian faith?

4 Why is eternal torture applied indiscrimately to people even when they have acted in a way which the Bible indicates is an example of the greatest act of love that they can demonstrate (love itself being regarded as one of, if not the most, important tenets of the Christian faith)?

4 What happens to people who die before having heard of Jesus Christ?

Don't feel you have to deal with all these questions in a single post, but if your answers are to the point, I will read and consider them fully, and with as open mind as possible.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Again you like to lump Christianity into one pot.

Did I? When?
And I notice that you have no interest in supporting any of your claims. You go around saying that the media is suppressing certain things, but when asked for them, you remain silent. I think your blaming the media is thus unjustified.
Where are these formerly blind people who can now see, why does prayer only work for blindness and not AIDS or amputees?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think you will find it hard to support that on anything other than the fact that most people in the US are Christian (or so I believe).

[b]Do you think the god of this world is going to make this common news?
Well if its a secret only you are privy to, can you share the actual stats, or are you only allowed to share the results? Seems to me you ly given that you revealed the secret answer to us already. How did you sneak that past Satan?[/b]

I have never heard of anyone trying to gather those kinds of stats. So there probably isn't any. But stats would not be able to distinguish between real Christians and those just claiming to be Christian either, like cult leaders or Adolf Hitler.

There is no torture in Hell as many believe. There is torment instead, like the agony of defeat experienced in someones mind.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have never heard of anyone trying to gather those kinds of stats. So there probably isn't any.

You honestly think you are aware of all stat collectors and what they are up to? No, you just didn't think before you posted something stupid again.

But stats would not be able to distinguish between real Christians and those just claiming to be Christian either, like cult leaders or Adolf Hitler.
Do you have a point? Or are you just talking nonsense again?

There is no torture in Hell as many believe. There is torment instead, like the agony of defeat experienced in someones mind.
And your point is? What does this have to do what I said? Or are you responding to Rank outsider not me?

So can you do better than checkbaiter? Can you point to references that substantiate his claims? Can you explain why blindness can be cured by prayer but not AIDS or amputees?

Originally posted by DeepThought
I heard of a Randomized Controlled Trial on faith healing where they had a "genuine" faith healer and a "placebo" faith healer - it was laying on of hands. Both groups did better than expected compared with normal treatment (better than expected means compared with no treatment or normal treatment, which they were getting as well) which is a vindication ...[text shortened]... e placebo effect. As I remember there was no significant difference between the two groups.

It is the Holy Spirit today that does those healing and it is not by any power of a faith healer. The Holy Spirit works through the faith of the one being healed to perform the miracle healings just as Christ did when He was on Earth in the flesh. There were times when Christ could do no mighty works of healing, when the people had no faith that God could heal them. Many have faith that they will not be healed, so their faith works against their healing.

The Instructor

Originally posted by twhitehead
You honestly think you are aware of all stat collectors and what they are up to? No, you just didn't think before you posted something stupid again.

[b]But stats would not be able to distinguish between real Christians and those just claiming to be Christian either, like cult leaders or Adolf Hitler.
Do you have a point? Or are you just talking no ...[text shortened]... iate his claims? Can you explain why blindness can be cured by prayer but not AIDS or amputees?[/b]

In your case, I have no point and I am just talking nonsense again. So that means you can ignore me or ridicule me. It is your choice.

The Instructor