"Greater love.... "

Originally posted by sonship

In which case, you should be confident that a 'good' Muslim who lays down his life for his friend will not find his way to an eternal torment in hell.

So eternal damnation and eternal love in God are to you mutually exclusive.

If God punishes forever than He cannot be righteous or loving ?

I think the Bible is a book of polar op ...[text shortened]... oth polar opposites are at play. And the two poles are [b]not mutually exclusive in God.[/b]

Well, first, I didn't say what you said. If eternal torment in hell was reserved only for the most heinously evil of people, I could see a semblance of logic to it. But again, that was not the basis of the premise that started this debate.

But ultimate love is incompatible with eternal punishment if the punishment is out of all scale to the offence, and where no mitigation is available.

I also see no reason why the magnitude of God's love, or indeed the fact of him being the creator, or indeed his omnipotence, has any bearing whatsoever on the extremity (including both intensity and duration) of the punishment he can justly impose.

Eternal punishment essentially serves no purpose. And being essentially pointless makes it all the more unjust when applied to people that do not deserve it. As well as being infinitely cruel.

Originally posted by sonship
Well, my reaction is to pray for the Moslems usually weekly in my morning time of prayer with my wife. And we support the ministries of translation of the Gospel into Farsi and Arabic.

So rather than simply pout in an armchair about an erroneous theology, I would rather accept the Lord's burden that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth.

What is your reaction to the need of the Moslem to hear the Gospel of Christ ?

Who exactly is "pouting in an armchair"?

Originally posted by sonship
What is your reaction to the need of the Moslem to hear the Gospel of Christ ?

Sorry, I don't know what this means.

Eternal punishment essentially serves no purpose. And being essentially pointless makes it all the more unjust when applied to people that do not deserve it. As well as being infinitely cruel.

You are saying you know of those underserving. But you really don't.
Only God really knows.

It serves the purpose to deter future worlds in eternity that rebellions and following a revolt like that of Satan against God will yield no good result.

The rebels go with their leader and share the miserable destiny of their leader. Those who go with Christ share the glorious destiny of their Leader.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Who exactly is "pouting in an armchair"?

Armchair pouting is from people who will not be saved yet complain so as to influence others not to believe in the Savior as well.

They don't want to serve the Lord. They want to not others to serve the Lord either.

I am more impressed with those who want to serve the Lord who speak of their burden that those without opportunity to respond to the Gospel would through them, be given opportunity to respond.

They're concern is genuine. Most of the others only are collecting their reasons why they should not believe in the Son of God to themselves be saved and pass on the good news.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Sorry, I don't know what this means.

You know something of what I mean. Your reaction seems to try to point out that God's way is not fair.

If you really had no idea what I mean I doubt that you would even be asking the questions that you are asking.

Originally posted by sonship
You know something of what I mean. Your reaction seems to try to point out that God's way is not fair.

If you really had no idea what I mean I doubt that you would even be asking the questions that you are asking.

You asked me:

What is your reaction to the need of the Muslim to hear the Gospel of Christ?

I said I did not understand what this means. I don't.

Perhaps this means something to you, but it means nothing to me. Most Muslims I know feel no need to hear the Gospel of Christ, so I simply don't know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by sonship

Eternal punishment essentially serves no purpose. And being essentially pointless makes it all the more unjust when applied to people that do not deserve it. As well as being infinitely cruel.

You are saying you know of those underserving. But you really don't.
Only God really knows.

It serves the purpose to deter future worlds ...[text shortened]... e destiny of their leader. Those who go with Christ share the glorious destiny of their Leader.

I wasn't aware that you believed that there would be future worlds after this one. The problem with debating with Christians is that you all believe so many different things, so it is difficult to know which particular interpretation of the Bible you subscribe to.

But even so, yes I can confidently say that I know that an 8 year old boy who was brought up by Muslim parents in a Muslim country and who dies saving his friend does not deserve to be sent to an eternity of torment.

Nor do I believe that it makes any difference whether this boy had seen a translation of the Bible before he died, when his parents and his whole community would have been telling him the Qu'ran is the true word of God.

Which, despite what you say, is what you most likely would have also believed if you had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Well, first, I didn't say what you said. If eternal torment in hell was reserved only for the most heinously evil of people, I could see a semblance of logic to it. But again, that was not the basis of the premise that started this debate.

But ultimate love is incompatible with eternal punishment if the punishment is out of all scale to the offenc ...[text shortened]... more unjust when applied to people that do not deserve it. As well as being infinitely cruel.

First I have to applaud your patience in going through Jaywill/sonships's posts and realising that his explanations make no sense.

The simple truth according to the Bible is that only certain chosen few will get eternal torment ..

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This punishment is not for just anyone. Those who live their lives with neither good nor evil may just die and not be raised just like the rest of Gods creation

Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

You mentioned good non Christians. My view is that God rewards all good people who do the good deeds which are commanded by Christ. This is something Paul tries to explain. I have mentioned this verse to many a Christian who believe that only Christians will be saved but they refuse to comment on it ..

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:11-16)

My interpretation of this is that those without law [ie Law of Moses or Law of Christ] and whose conscience guide them to do good, they will be judged by Christ in the day of judgment.

Originally posted by sonship

Eternal punishment essentially serves no purpose. And being essentially pointless makes it all the more unjust when applied to people that do not deserve it. As well as being infinitely cruel.

You are saying you know of those underserving. But you really don't.
Only God really knows.

It serves the purpose to deter future worlds ...[text shortened]... e destiny of their leader. Those who go with Christ share the glorious destiny of their Leader.

Can this -

'It serves the purpose to deter future worlds in eternity that rebellions and following a revolt like that of Satan against God will yield no good result.'

be Biblically supported?

I wasn't aware that you believed that there would be future worlds after this one. The problem with debating with Christians is that you all believe so many different things, so it is difficult to know which particular interpretation of the Bible you subscribe to.

You know I notice that sometimes it is complained if we Christians all believe exactly the same. And it is complained also if we hold some differences opinion on some things.

Sometimes it is simply complained in a kind of no win manner - damned of you do - damned if you don't.

Is the main concern you have about how to debate us ?

Another approach to finding out what the Christian faith is all about is to study for yourself the New Testament and see what you would embrace in your own belief.

It seems that you don't care too much about learning but rather your main interest is to fashion a debate. Try reading for yourself the New Testament sometime, to see how matters impress your own view.

But even so, yes I can confidently say that I know that an 8 year old boy who was brought up by Muslim parents in a Muslim country and who dies saving his friend does not deserve to be sent to an eternity of torment.

You have made this point a few times. And I have seriously considered it, even before you made it. Since I don't want to conduct the judgment before the time, I cannot comment what the case will be.

Jesus has told me to go forth into all the world and preach the Gospel. I think He is looking at my level of obedience first. How extensively I could predict the exact destiny of every child, born or unborn, or every man in varying levels of awareness, I don't know.

I think there are some unknowns. But I think He is looking to my obedience to the great commission.

He wants us to abide in Him and live a life in union with Himself - "Abide in Me and I in you."

It appears that the only one fully satisfactory to God is His Son. Apart from Him we can do nothing. Or apart from Him all that we DO do will amount to nothing in His eternal purpose.

The whole Adamic race has been alienated from God. And what is highly esteemed by us is often an abomination in the sight of God.

Nor do I believe that it makes any difference whether this boy had seen a translation of the Bible before he died, when his parents and his whole community would have been telling him the Qu'ran is the true word of God.

I already indicated that the last verse of the book of Jonah gave me confidence that God knows the details of everyone's life better than you or I.

And there are other reasons for me to believe that with some people physical death may not be the termination of all possibility to respond to God's salvation.

Which, despite what you say, is what you most likely would have also believed if you had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents.

Whatever their situation, it is probably not your situation. It would be sad if for the consideration of someone else's situation, you rationalized not hearing the good news for yourself.

Can this -

'It serves the purpose to deter future worlds in eternity that rebellions and following a revolt like that of Satan against God will yield no good result.'

be Biblically supported?

I think I have reasons to believe that this is the case. But I would not be too dogmatic about the details.

But here are a few indications that God has something interesting in mind for eternity -

1.) "That He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:7)

The key phrase to me here is "in the ages to come". I understand this as God desiring to display the ever increasing grace in kindness for eternal ages to come.

2.) In these ages to come, I do know, at least, that God creates a new heaven and a new earth. New worlds of new creations may not then be unreasonable. I would not press it too far though -

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away ..." (Rev. 21:1)

"And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true." (v.5)

"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:13)

In short we are expecting a new universe. Are new worlds with other beings in this new universe too much to expect ? Maybe. But maybe He did say that it has not entered into man's heart what God has prepared for those who love Him -

"But as it is written, Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man's heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9)

There are expositors who say that this passage only relates to the New Testament salvation. They have a point. However it may also include the extension of that great salvation on through the ages to come.

3.) What about other living things ? Perhaps, when the Bible says that the saved are a king of "firstfruits" it implies that other creatures God has in mind to create sometime.

"He brought us forth by the word of truth, purposing that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:18)

It is a curious phrase. And "firstfruits" implies subsequent fruit or other fruits "of His creatures".

4.) What about the warning part that I spoke of ? Well in the prophet Isaiah we see that the eternally punished furnish a deterrent and warning to those in the blessed new world -

" And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah. Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

So while I would not be too dogmatic about details of eternity in the new universe, I think passages like these may indicate other beings learning from the failure of Satan's rebellion.

5.) The extent of the kingdom of the Christ is said to have no end -

"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

To the increase of His government and to [His] peace there is no end, Upon the throne of David, And over His kingdom to establish it and to uphold it ... " (Isaiah 9:6,7)

There is a lot of real estate in the present universe. I suspect that God may have some purpose for it all which at present we cannot conceive of.

But reality is stronger than human imagination. And with full harmony and cooperation with God and in utter love with Him as a Bride to her Bridegroom, what limits there are to this divine romance may take us eternity to enjoy.

Originally posted by sonship

Can this -

'It serves the purpose to deter future worlds in eternity that rebellions and following a revolt like that of Satan against God will yield no good result.'

be Biblically supported?

I think I have reasons to believe that this is the case. But I would not be too dogmatic about the details.

But here are a few ind ...[text shortened]... its there are to this divine romance may take us eternity to enjoy.

Thanks.

"Greater love.... "

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) Comments. (OP)

I wonder if the English life there is the Greek psyche or bios.

If psyche then is would not be limited to physically dying for a friend.
If bios it would be physical death on behalf of a friend.

The former enlarges the scope. For forgiving someone is a form of giving up the soul for another. And many forms of service and serving others would also be giving up one's soul for others.