"Greater love.... "

Originally posted by sonship

It makes no such sense. Why does being the ultimate form of justice make it legitimate to send non-Christians to hell for eternity as opposed to just allowing them to die?

What we are told is this [b]"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

And to repeat, ...[text shortened]... l things, and desperately wicked:" (Jeremiah 17:9) [/quote]


.[/b]

Actually, I think we should stop here. I know you think you are responding to my points, but you simply aren't, and the gap in comprehension is so wide, and you posts so long and irrelevant, I simply don't have the time to wade through them all and explain it to you, and I think it would simply prompt more misunderstandings.

But, by way of example, saying 'I am allowed to jump out of a window' is not equivalent to what you previously posted about 'eternal punishment allowing you to reject and rebel'.

If you had followed the essence of what you previously posted, the correct formulation would have been 'Hitting the ground allows me to jump out of the window'.

Which, as I said, makes no sense.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Actually, I think we should stop here. I know you think you are responding to my points, but you simply aren't, and the gap in comprehension is so wide, and you posts so long and irrelevant, I simply don't have the time to wade through them all and explain it to you, and I think it would simply prompt more misunderstandings.

But, by way of example, ...[text shortened]... ng the ground allows me to jump out of the window'.

Which, as I said, makes no sense.

I corrected a few typos above. Maybe read it again before I continue.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
1.I have no evidence unless you want to come here to NY.

Then I think you are wrong to be blaming the media. I do not expect the media to cover every tall tale they hear. I expect them to cover stories that can be backed up with evidence.

I never said anyone covered anything up, you said that. The bible says the truth is suppressed.
Is that different? I am not sure what you are saying.

Most people believe AIDS is incurable, but to God, nothing is impossible.
Search "Andrew Wommack", visit one of his meetings and you will see all sorts of healing by the power of Jesus Christ.
2. See above. It is my fault? Tell me how it is my fault people in your country are dying.
I didn't say it was your fault. I said you are guilty of gross negligence and I explained how.

3. I didn't need proof before I believed what God says, just renewing my mind to what the bible says. Jesus said believe him then you will see.
Relevance?

4. Why did I bother telling my opinion? Because even though you do not believe, some will.
Why some but not me? What do you have against me in particular?

Your heart is cold and unwilling to come to Jesus, so you suffer in the misery of your own mind and will not come to the truth and be born again nor healed.
Misery? You clearly don't know much about me and are just making it all up to stroke your own ego.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Greater love.... "

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

Comments[/b]

depends. are they laying down their lives through war, or just self defense?

i take the KJV stance that thou shall not kill
you can put your life on the line, but you cannot and should not take a life of another human being, period.

Originally posted by sonship
I corrected a few typos above. Maybe read it again before I continue.

I read it again. It made no more sense to me than the first time.

You still have not explained why punishing a non-Christian for all eternity is acceptable. I am not talking about rapists or thieves. I am talking about a Muslim who laid down his life for his friend.

I have not said that is what you believe. I have not said that is what God does.

I have simply said that, if that is what you do think happens, then God as you perceive him is unjust and cruel. Which he is.

Also the idea that a criminal cannot hold a reasoned view about whether their punishment is proportionate or not is simply and plainly wrong.

I was caught speeding a few years back. I got points and a fine. I did not complain about the penalty. Had the judge put me in hell for all eternity, I think I could reasonably have argued that that the penalty was unjust and cruel.

As I can that putting a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend into the eternal torment of hell is unjust, cruel and unnecessary.

Before you continue in this vein, you must simply recognise that you are answering questions I did not ask.

Okay. I will attempt to speak only to what you ask.

I never asked you to 'predict sentences', so why raise this?

Sure you did. "What about this hypothetical situation ? Tell me what God will do ?"

That's the jest of it I think. You demand that I justify the condemning of a "good" non-Christian.

You are asking for my prediction. I gave you some situations I see in Scripture that indicate to me God's justness. These passages indicate to me that I do not have to worry about the unjust God.

That is what you are concerned with.

I never said we were not warned, but I consider it does not adequately explain why hell is necessary. So why raise it?

I may have not written as much about this as I wished just yet. Books exist on the question. You're asking for a little post of a few paragraphs.

Maybe you can appreciate that one might want to write a longer response.

One of the most helpful books I read on this was by Robert Govett - "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades". Now that book is not an Internet Discussion Forum post but a book of 181 pages and some appendix discussions.

It was written in response to articles from Universalists criticizing eternal punishment as a false doctrine. If you are that interested you can get it from Schoettle Publishing Co. inc. They're online.

"deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked"

You mean, like a person brought up as a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend?

See why it is pointless continuing this discussion? Either:

1 You think a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. In which case, we will never agree, and it is a truly awful perspective to have on a fellow human being.

2 You don't. In which case, why did you add to the post to introduce something so irrelevant?

God as you perceive him is unjust and cruel

Let's just cut right to the chase then.

I believe an unjust God is impossible.
The thought that we misunderstand some of the Bible is possible.

The thought that God needs to sit at our feet and learn from us about mercy and love and fairness and what should be done with those who refuse to be saved (or who are your "good non-Christians," ) is not in my imagination.

The effect could not be greater than the cause.
And the God who needs our adjustment and improvement I think is impossible.

Could you and I create the universe ? And that out of nothing ?

You think a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. In which case, we will never agree, and it is a truly awful perspective to have on a fellow human being.

Do you know the name of a Moslem who has lain down his life for a friend ?

I didn't say he didn't. I am just asking you for a name.

Originally posted by sonship

God as you perceive him is unjust and cruel

Let's just cut right to the chase then.

I believe an unjust God is impossible.
The thought that we misunderstand some of the Bible is possible.

The thought that God needs to sit at our feet and learn from us about mercy and love and fairness and what should be done with those wh ...[text shortened]... t I think is impossible.

Could you and I create the universe ? And that out of nothing ?

That's fine.

In which case, you should be confident that a 'good' Muslim who lays down his life for his friend will not find his way to an eternal torment in hell.

Originally posted by sonship

You think a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. In which case, we will never agree, and it is a truly awful perspective to have on a fellow human being.

Do you know the name of a Moslem who has lain down his life for a friend ?

I didn't say he didn't. I am just asking you for a name.

OK. I'll ask you two questions in return.

1 Do you agree that I would only need to identify one example of this to make my question legitimate?

2 Do you really believe that, throughout history, there has never been a single Muslim out of the billions that have lived that has laid down his life for a friend?

You think a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. In which case, we will never agree, and it is a truly awful perspective to have on a fellow human being.

I know that the heart is deceitful above all things and is desperately wicked.

How do you know that your Moslem in your example does not know Christ ?

Maybe he's a cultural Moslem who in the microscopic depths of his being received Christ though he is unclear about this.

Some people get to know God in spite of the religions they are in.

Missionaries have gone to countries to share the Gospel and been told that the God they spoke of they had already met somehow.

The testimony of one American Indian called "Crying Wind" about how she knew Jesus before she "knew about Jesus" is an example.

I knew a man who was in an accident and in a coma for days. When he awoke he knew the Lord Jesus.

So God has more ways to reach people with His Son than we imagine.

I almost laid down my life for a friend before I was a formal Christian. Maybe I had already met the Lord Jesus in the deepest recesses of my being.

You may notice that I rarely tell anyone on this Forum that I know that they are not saved. Because I really do not know. And there are people walking around who are regenerated in the deepest recesses of their being but are culturally labeled something beside "born again Christian".

In the last analysis only God really knows who has believed into Christ and who has not. This is not to encourage ambiguity. But this is to realize that in the final analysis only God knows who has received Him.

Originally posted by sonship

You think a Muslim who lays down his life for a friend is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. In which case, we will never agree, and it is a truly awful perspective to have on a fellow human being.

I know that the heart is deceitful above all things and is desperately wicked.

How do you know that your Moslem in your ...[text shortened]... y. But this is to realize that in the final analysis only God knows who has received Him.

I don't know any of these things.

But I was presuming that this person was a practising Muslim, and someone who believes he is worshipping the God of the Qu'ran, and also believes that this is the one true God.

None of which makes any difference to my analysis that sending this person (who lays down his life for a friend) to an eternity of torment is cruel, unjust and unnecessary.

Again, to be clear, I am not stating this is what you believe. Just that anyone who does believe this has a view of God which involves him being cruel and unjust.

In which case, you should be confident that a 'good' Muslim who lays down his life for his friend will not find his way to an eternal torment in hell.

So eternal damnation and eternal love in God are to you mutually exclusive.

If God punishes forever than He cannot be righteous or loving ?

I think the Bible is a book of polar opposites which are possible.
That's where we part in our different beliefs.
You think ONE matter makes the OTHER matter impossible.
I don't share that suspicion.

Rather I think the Bible is about a God who is both infinite love and infinite justice. Both polar opposites are at play. And the two poles are not mutually exclusive in God.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I don't know any of these things.

But I was presuming that this person was a practising Muslim, and someone who believes he is worshipping the God of the Qu'ran, and also believes that this is the one true God.

None of which makes any difference to my analysis that sending this person (who lays down his life for a friend) to an eternity of tormen ...[text shortened]... that anyone who does believe this has a view of God which involves him being cruel and unjust.

Well, my reaction is to pray for the Moslems usually weekly in my morning time of prayer with my wife. And we support the ministries of translation of the Gospel into Farsi and Arabic.

So rather than simply pout in an armchair about an erroneous theology, I would rather accept the Lord's burden that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth.

What is your reaction to the need of the Moslem to hear the Gospel of Christ ?