"Greater love.... "

Originally posted by sonship
This was the powerful video of the month for me. But its a long one I had to watch to the end. Especially the testimnies of the many women.

[b] Lifting the Veil on Pologamy. People delivered from Mormonism and finding Jesus.

For any who intend not to watch the whole thing, just watch the last 8 minutes around 1:16:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjDJs7wvGLg[/b]

Whilst I have no doubt that watching testimnies of pologamy is interesting, what does this have to do with the OP?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Do you think a Muslim who lays down his life for his friend goes to hell?

Yes, unless he has received Jesus as Lord. There is no other way.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, unless he has received Jesus as Lord. There is no other way.

Then your God is evil and undeserving of our worship.

Hopefully, when I die, God will simply snuff me out of existence, as I would not choose an eternity of paradise with such a malevolent being. I am baffled that you would.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Then your God is evil and undeserving of our worship.

Hopefully, when I die, God will simply snuff me out of existence, as I would not choose an eternity of paradise with such a malevolent being. I am baffled that you would.

In the unrepentant state that you are in, I would expect this kind of answer.
Many years ago I was the same as you in my thinking. When I started searching for truth and the Lord Jesus revealed himself to me, every thing I had ever believed went out the window. Now it all makes sense and is very logical. In an evil world controlled by Satan, Jesus was not only a magnificent gift, it was very legal in the scope of the spiritual world around us. I would not expect you to understand, sometimes you have to get to the end of your rope, so to speak, and cry out to God.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
In an evil world controlled by Satan,

God allows this?
or
God cannot do anything about it?

Ridiculous!!!

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Whilst I have no doubt that watching testimnies of pologamy is interesting, what does this have to do with the OP?

Not the testimonies on polygamy in and of themselves. How from such dark depths of despair Jesus saves. That's what is so interesting.

When the quote of the OP is understood in its context, the deliverance of these people has to do with the Greatest Love - Christ. Go look up the passage of the OP in the Gospel of John and read with it a few of the surrounding verses on both sides.

These cult members found real love among believers who helped lead them to Jesus.

Jesus is really talking about Himself. He speaks of His all excelling love for His disciples. Then He speaks of His all excelling love from living within them.

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
God allows this?
or
God cannot do anything about it?

Ridiculous!!!

God has done something about this, He gave us His Son. When we ask Jesus, to be our Lord, then we are no longer under the dominion of the god of this world. We are subject to Jesus. We are under new management, so to speak. The god of this world no longer has a hold over us unless we allow him to.
That is why we avoid sin. Sin is an invitation to satan.
The people of this world do what their god does, sin. They lie, cheat, murder, etc.
Those who belong to Jesus do what pleases God. Love, exhort, be kind to others, etc.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
too simplistic. there are many variables that need to be taken into consideration. although the act of self sacrifice is a sign of bravery its not always a sign of love. here is a few examples.

wouldnt most of us on here jump in front of a speeding car to push a baby or toddler out of the way, even if we didnt know the child? doesnt mean we love the ...[text shortened]... or different reasons. its far too simplistic to call it the greatest love. typical of the bible.

It's sounds simplistic because 'core truths' are by nature simple and straight forward. [simple to say hard to practice].

This is a good example of how if the reader doesn't get into the spirit of the op then the intention and and message that the author of the op is trying to convey is easily lost.

It's easy to find fault with other's comments , but where does that leave us? It doesn't further the exchange except as a sort of critical dissemination of the authors words.

So while your point is well made, I reckon it's not really in the spirit of what GB is trying to say here. Mind you I should read the rest of the thread before I go too far 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
In the unrepentant state that you are in, I would expect this kind of answer.
Many years ago I was the same as you in my thinking. When I started searching for truth and the Lord Jesus revealed himself to me, every thing I had ever believed went out the window. Now it all makes sense and is very logical. In an evil world controlled by Satan, Jesus was n ...[text shortened]... understand, sometimes you have to get to the end of your rope, so to speak, and cry out to God.

Without poo-pooing your testimony , and in all seriousness, when Jesus revealed himself to you was it in a physical form or... ?

Genuinely interested.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
God allows this?
or
God cannot do anything about it?

Ridiculous!!!

I think it's got something to do with free will.

(btw i dont hold christian ideas literally, but at times I can see some truth in them. It goes without saying that I dont believe in satan the way Christians make 'him' out to be and other such extrapolations.)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Without poo-pooing your testimony , and in all seriousness, when Jesus revealed himself to you was it in a physical form or... ?

Genuinely interested.

It is difficult to put into words. Not the way you think. Things happened in my life, good things, I was at peace with myself and God, the questions I had were answered in thoughts.
It's like when you are searching for an answer and you seem to be hit by something and you realize the answer has been right under your nose, for lack of better words.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I would not expect you to understand, sometimes you have to get to the end of your rope, so to speak, and cry out to God.

Ahh, the old "you cannot understand, therefore I don't need to explain" defense.
I say you are totally wrong. But as long as you are deluded by your religion, you will never understand, so I won't bother trying to explain where you are wrong.

Of course the real question is why we even bother talking to each other when we are both convinced that the other party is incapable of understanding us. Does it just stroke our egos to say 'I'm right and you're wrong'?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Ahh, the old "you cannot understand, therefore I don't need to explain" defense.
I say you are totally wrong. But as long as you are deluded by your religion, you will never understand, so I won't bother trying to explain where you are wrong.

Of course the real question is why we even bother talking to each other when we are both convinced that the ot ...[text shortened]... e of understanding us. Does it just stroke our egos to say 'I'm right and you're wrong'?

Well, he was dead right on one point. I cannot understand. But, then again, I don't think he can explain it either.

I mean, God can do anything. So God could have said that, when you die, one of three things will happen to you.

1 Group 1 - The really evil people burn in hell.

2 Group 2 - People who simply don't accept him as God, but otherwise live a decent life, will just die.

3 Group 3 - Those that accept him as saviour get an eternity in paradise.

(OK - I don't agree with this set-up either, but at least it has a semblance of decency and logic to it.)

But no. God has made the conscious choice that people in Group 2 will burn for all eternity in hell. Even those that have performed the act that the Bible regards as the the greatest demonstration of purely selfless love. He could have just let them die in peace, but no. They have lost out on eternal paradise (which is a huge price to pay), but not even that is good enough.

Only an eternity of excruciating torture is right for people who lay down their lives to save a friend, but just happen to have grown up as Muslims (which sonship and checkbaiter most likely would have had they been born to Muslim parents).

Evil is simply the correct word for making a choice like this.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Well, he was dead right on one point. I cannot understand. But, then again, I don't think he can explain it either.

I mean, God can do anything. So God could have said that, when you die, one of three things will happen to you.

1 Group 1 - The really evil people burn in hell.

2 Group 2 - People who simply don't accept him as God, but otherw ...[text shortened]... en born to Muslim parents).

Evil is simply the correct word for making a choice like this.

This is where most people miss it. God cannot do anything. He cannot not lie, he cannot be unrighteous, he cannot be evil. If he gave all authority to Adam, then Adam took this gift and gave it to Satan, wouldn't God be unrighteous to just take it back?
He will not do that. He had to find a way where his righteousness is preserved.
He had to defeat Satan and redeem mankind at the same time. He has given his Son, his Word, Creation which is all around us.....what else does he have to do?
He promises that if you seek Him with all your heart you will be found by Him. He is faithful, and cannot lie.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
This is where most people miss it. God cannot do anything. He cannot not lie, he cannot be unrighteous, he cannot be evil. If he gave all authority to Adam, then Adam took this gift and gave it to Satan, wouldn't God be unrighteous to just take it back?
He will not do that. He had to find a way where his righteousness is preserved.
He had to defeat Sat ...[text shortened]... t if you seek Him with all your heart you will be found by Him. He is faithful, and cannot lie.

As I said, I didn't think you could explain it. None of this remotely addressed the question of why the concept of hell as everlasting torture is required.

If you think your God could not have organised matters so that it avoided the need to torture people for all eternity, then your God is either not omnipotent, or lacks imagination.

The fact that God thinks deciding to torture good people for all eternity is required to preserve his own righteousness just demonstrates how warped this religious view of hell as is.

It is the language of the psychopath.

Out of interest, what do you think happens to people who die before they have ever even heard of Jesus Christ?