Originally posted by FMFI am not asking you about the meaning they invest in it now, I am asking you whether the historical evidence for the antiquity of the cross also applies to Indonesian Christians and it seems that yes, it does also apply and we can now safely sate that the cross as venerated in Indonesia as elsewhere is of pagan antiquity.
The meaning they invest in it now is the only meaning that matters. A symbol only represents the meaning that people invest in it. This does not mean that all people invest the same meaning in it. And it does not mean that the meaning you personally invest in it supersedes or replaces the meaning others invest in it.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieFor Indonesian Christians, a crucifix is a representation of the cross on which Jesus died. The cross, in and of itself, possesses no meaning. It is an inanimate object. The meanings and symbolisms are applied by humans. Pagans, JWs, atheists, you name them. They have their perceptions and they invest their meanings. Indonesian Christians do not see the crucifix as a pagan symbol ~ it isn't a pagan symbol to them ~ even if it is for you.
I am not asking you about the meaning they invest in it now, I am asking you whether the historical evidence for the antiquity of the cross also applies to Indonesian Christians and it seems that yes, it does also apply and we can now safely sate that the cross as venerated in Indonesia as elsewhere is of pagan antiquity.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe cross is important to Christians, because it was at the cross that Holy blood was shed for forgiveness of our sins. However, since you are NOT a Christian, you wouldn't know anything about that.
I am not asking you about the meaning they invest in it now, I am asking you whether the historical evidence for the antiquity of the cross also applies to Indonesian Christians and it seems that yes, it does also apply and we can now safely sate that the cross as venerated in Indonesia as elsewhere is of pagan antiquity.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat does the swastika symbolize?
I am not asking you about the meaning they invest in it now, I am asking you whether the historical evidence for the antiquity of the cross also applies to Indonesian Christians and it seems that yes, it does also apply and we can now safely sate that the cross as venerated in Indonesia as elsewhere is of pagan antiquity.
Originally posted by FMFthe cross that the Indonesians venerate is of pagan antiquity, are you denying the fact?
For Indonesian Christians, a crucifix is a representation of the cross on which Jesus died. The cross, in and of itself, possesses no meaning. It is an inanimate object. The meanings and symbolisms are applied by humans. Pagans, JWs, atheists, you name them. They have their perceptions and they invest their meanings. Indonesian Christians do not see the crucifix as a pagan symbol ~ it isn't a pagan symbol to them ~ even if it is for you.
Originally posted by RJHindsthanks but i seem to know more about it than you.
The cross is important to Christians, because it was at the cross that Holy blood was shed for forgiveness of our sins. However, since you are NOT a Christian, you wouldn't know anything about that.
Originally posted by whodeyMy mom is Irish protestant with a mean Calvinistic streak running through her body (whisky and dancing its the ruination of Scotland!) she is very superstitious. My father is a lapsed Catholic and about as pagan as you can get!
And what are you robbie? Are you not a production from pagan roots or were all your ancestors JW's?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThen you are of pagan origin?
My mom is Irish protestant with a mean Calvinistic streak running through her body (whisky and dancing its the ruination of Scotland!) she is very superstitious. My father is a lapsed Catholic and about as pagan as you can get!
Should you be stoned?