Harlot and the Wild Beast?

Originally posted by jaywill
Chapter 17 verse 1. The Harlot refers to the apostate Roman Catholic Church. A harlot does not have a husband. This indicates that God never admitted having any relationship with the apostate Roman Church. Revelation 17 concerns religious Babylon. Revelation 18 concerns material Babylon, the actual [b]city of Rome.

The verse shows the sentence or co ...[text shortened]... s" of Christ.

That is enough for this post.
Jesus is Lord.[/b]

Well, as usual your somewhat close but still no cigar. Matt 7:19, 20 says you would know who his true followers are by their fruits they produce. To put JW's in a group that does not produce fine fruit is a joke. Look at other religions that are loosing members by the thousands daily that they have to revert to such silly tricks as having
concerts or dances or camps or whatever they can come up with to get anyone to come to their churches... Look at religions that have such sick problems that they have to pay out millions of dollars to keep from going to court..Anyway you get the point.
Anyway back to the post. The Catholic religion is only a small part of Babylon the Great. It would also include "ALL" false religion. Rev 14:8 gives a clue that "ALL" the nations were made drunk by her. The Catholics are a huge religion and have affected many but by no means all the governments. Only all false religions as a group could effect all the governments. So just applying one religion to this is not correct...
The Beast that she has been sitting on or controlling has been all the governments that have existed throughtout history. And most will agree that religion has been a major influance on goverments for many thousands of years. Rev 17: 1, 2.
In fact when she is finally distroyed, Rev 18: 15-19 says she is mourned by the "world's" merchants. Rev 18: 23 says "All" the nations were mislead by her.
Clearly then it would have to be bigger then any one religion. Again it's all false religion that is applied as being Babylon the Great. And this would only be right since the original Babylon's false teachings still effect all false religions today.

Originally posted by galveston75
.... Only all false religions as a group could effect all the governments. So just applying one religion to this is not correct.......

Obviously you are saying Jehovah Witnesses are not in the group of false religions.

Who else is NOT in this group?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Obviously you are saying Jehovah Witnesses are not in the group of false religions.

Who else is NOT in this group?

That's for you to find out, not me.

Originally posted by galveston75
That's for you to find out, not me.

No. Christ decides which religion is false and which is not.
I dont need to find out anything.

The JWs have already decided that ALL other Christian denominations are false. Thats why you cant answer the question .. you are afraid you will be the laughing stock of the forums. ... again ...😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
No. Christ decides which religion is false and which is not.
I dont need to find out anything.

The JWs have already decided that ALL other Christian denominations are false. Thats why you cant answer the question .. you are afraid you will be the laughing stock of the forums. ... again ...😀

As you say, only Jesus decides that. No other answer can be given...

Originally posted by galveston75
Well, as usual your somewhat close but still no cigar. Matt 7:19, 20 says you would know who his true followers are by their fruits they produce. To put JW's in a group that does not produce fine fruit is a joke. Look at other religions that are loosing members by the thousands daily that they have to revert to such silly tricks as having
concerts or d since the original Babylon's false teachings still effect all false religions today.

Before I continue first I want to say this:

The first thing a human being should give attention to is not which group to join. It is to recieve the living Jesus into their heart.

First "You MUST be born again," (John 3:7) Not, first, you must update your membership card. Wherever you are receive the Lord Jesus into your heart today and be born again.

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Well, as usual your somewhat close but still no cigar. Matt 7:19, 20 says you would know who his true followers are by their fruits they produce.
=====================================

YOU and I, as human beings will know them by thier fruits. GOD, knows them on an impossibly deeper level. THAT is why the job of separation is left to the ANGELS as far as their growing together in the world is concerned.


The ANGELS do NOT have to know them by their fruits.

I might also hasten to add that some sons of the kingdom inherit the kingdom of their Father (Matt. 13:38,43). Yet SOME "sons of the kingdom" are defeated Christians who will spend 1,000 years in the "outer darkness" outside of the realm of His kingdom (Matt. 8:12)[/b]

"But I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will recline [at table] in the kingdom of the heavens, But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt.8:6)

This matter of the sons of the kingdom being in the kingdom on one hand yet excluded from it in the outer darkness on the other hand should confirm 1 Corinthian 3:14. That is that some saved will lose the reward but be saved yet so as through fire.

"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This way fruit producing Christians will be rewarded. And defeated Christians who did not produce fruit will be saved yet losing a reward. This amounts to sons of the kingdom spending 1,000 years in the outer darkness (Matt. 8:6) and other sons of the kingdom shining in the kingdom of thier Father as a reward (Matt. 13:38,43)


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To put JW's in a group that does not produce fine fruit is a joke. Look at other religions that are loosing members by the thousands daily that they have to revert to such silly tricks as having
concerts or dances or camps or whatever they can come up with to get anyone to come to their churches... Look at religions that have such sick problems that they have to pay out millions of dollars to keep from going to court..Anyway you get the point.
=================================

I agree with you about the worldly and repulsive methods used in degraded Christianity.

I do get the point. However, this means that the works of some Christians will not be approved before the judgment seat of Christ. And Paul says that they will lose the reward and be saved yet so as through fire.

The loss of eternal salvation is because of not receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior. The loss of the reward of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom is because of failure to produce fruits approved by God.

You see, you are confusing two matters. You should not assume that just because there is a separation of wheat and tares that the means there is no further discrimination between wheat.

Wheat means all of the true Christians. However in Matthew and elsewhere we see that there are degrees of discipline and reward to Christians.

The discrimination between overcoming believers in Jesus and defeated believers in Jesus is something Jesus carries out before His judgment seat at the beginning of the 1,000 year kingdom.

And encrease in number in the Jehovah's Witnesses does not mean that they bear fruit pleasing to Jesus Christ. This is no more the case then encrease of people because of a Christian Rock Concert in the flesh means fruit pleasing to Christ.

You must be born again to have eternal life. You must produce fruits pleasing to Christ to be rewarded with the millennial kingdom once having received eternal life.

But to make Jesus an angel and deny that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, is dreadfully misleading and dangerous. I think such run the risk of being TARES looking like WHEAT. Same shape apparently, same form. Yet at harvest one turns golden color and the other darkens. It is almost impossible to tell the difference until the harvest.

Jesus warned that if the disciples tried to separate the false Christians from the true ones they would make mistakes. This must mean that some false Christians may look not too bad and some genuine Christians are questionable.


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Anyway back to the post. The Catholic religion is only a small part of Babylon the Great.
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I did say that she was called the mother of harlots. This means that she has some daughters. I don't want to be part of the mother or identified with the daughters.

But wherever we are first we must be born again.

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It would also include "ALL" false religion. Rev 14:8 gives a clue that "ALL" the nations were made drunk by her. The Catholics are a huge religion and have affected many but by no means all the governments.
=====================================

This does not negate what I said. I believe that I said that chapter 17 was the harlot and chapter 18 was Rome the city. Now I may not have as much understanding of this as I'd like. However, the harlot upon many waters would mean the world wide Public (Catholic) Church. Or you could say that what has come out of Rome has drunkened many peoples from many nations.

That Babylon would include other religions though, might be true. But many other religions do not claim to have a spousal relationship with Jesus as His wife. Moslems do not claim to be the Church of Christ as His Wife.

I think it is the claiming of the Roman Catholic Church to be Christ's counterpart that God denies, making her the harlot and not the bride. It seems clear that the Harlot is in total contrast to the Bride.

I think that for you to persuade me otherwise you would have to prove more that the Harlot does not claim to be the counterpart of Christ.

I will not go into that matter here now. But we could. You see you are partially right in this regard - the prinicple of Catholicism is to always MIX the ideas of pagan religion with the Gospel of Christ.

In this way things of Islam. Buddhism, Confucianism, and even "the deep things of Satan" are mixed in together with the Gospel of Jesus making a huge MIXTURE.

In that sense you have some ground to say all religions are there represented by Babylon.


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Only all false religions as a group could effect all the governments. So just applying one religion to this is not correct...
The Beast that she has been sitting on or controlling has been all the governments that have existed throughtout history. And most will agree that religion has been a major influance on goverments for many thousands of years. Rev 17: 1, 2.
In fact when she is finally distroyed, Rev 18: 15-19 says she is mourned by the "world's" merchants. Rev 18: 23 says "All" the nations were mislead by her.
Clearly then it would have to be bigger then any one religion. Again it's all false religion that is applied as being Babylon the Great. And this would only be right since the original Babylon's false teachings still effect all false religions today.
============================================

I don't think that this interpretation is harmful. I don't feel the need to object to it. True religion without the living Jesus will not save you. Only Jesus will save you.

Once you have Jesus in your heart and you are born of God, you need to through patience allow Him to grow in you to produce fruit unto God.

Mere good religious works done out of ethical human goodness will not accomplish God's will. Unless we abide in Him we can do nothing. If we do not abide in Him all that we do do will amount to nothing before God.

And if someone is teaching you that to Abide in Jesus is offensive to the Father and that you need to make Jesus just an angel and only worship God of the Old Testament, you are in danger of being terribly mislead. It may cost you eternal salvation because you never RECEIVE the Lord Jesus.

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)

Of course we should not want to be in a false religion. DO YOU WANT TO BE IN A SO CALLED "TRUE RELIGION" AND NOT HAVE THE SON OF GOD ??

I don't.

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son
of God does not have the life.

I have written these things to you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."
(1 John 5:12,13 my emphasis)

Originally posted by jaywill
Chapter 17 verse 1. The Harlot refers to the apostate Roman Catholic Church. A harlot does not have a husband. This indicates that God never admitted having any relationship with the apostate Roman Church. Revelation 17 concerns religious Babylon. Revelation 18 concerns material Babylon, the actual [b]city of Rome.

The verse shows the sentence or co ...[text shortened]... s" of Christ.

That is enough for this post.
Jesus is Lord.[/b]

wow thats a rather controversial statement to make.

Originally posted by Rajk999
No. Christ decides which religion is false and which is not.
I dont need to find out anything.

The JWs have already decided that ALL other Christian denominations are false. Thats why you cant answer the question .. you are afraid you will be the laughing stock of the forums. ... again ...😀

again, oh no, it was you and thinkofnothing that did not even know the belief that you were proposing was false and trying to refute, it gave me endless hours of entertainment that one did, even now the corners of my mouth turn upwards as i contemplate your folly!

"""The first thing a human being should give attention to is not which group to join. It is to recieve the living Jesus into their heart."""


Not quite right. No matter how smart, educated or saved one thinks he is, you cannot do this on your own. Impossible according to Prov 3:5. Heb 10:25. Acts 15:14.

1Pet 2:17, Heb 13:17, Heb 10:25,25, 1 Cor 14:33, 40, 1 Pet 2:9, 17, 1 Cor 1:10, John 10:16, Matt 24:14 & 28:19, 20 all show it would be an organized group of people that would be doing his will. Not someone thinking they have it in the bag becuase they think all you have to say is "I'm saved and that's all I have to do."

Why would one even think that they can do this on their own? Why even have the Bible and all this direction if it didn't mean something? Why did the early congregations have such an organized approach to the ministry?

Could it be pride or that terrible human quality to be independent as was the case with the orginal Serpent and Adam & Eve?

Originally posted by galveston75
"""The first thing a human being should give attention to is not which group to join. It is to recieve the living Jesus into their heart."""


Not quite right. No matter how smart, educated or saved one thinks he is, you cannot do this on your own. Impossible according to Prov 3:5. Heb 10:25. Acts 15:14.

1Pet 2:17, Heb 13:17, Heb 10:25,25, 1 Cor ...[text shortened]... an quality to be independent as was the case with the orginal Serpent and Adam & Eve?

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Not quite right. No matter how smart, educated or saved one thinks he is, you cannot do this on your own. Impossible according to Prov 3:5. Heb 10:25. Acts 15:14.
======================================

You have a point. And I do not want to be misunderstood. However a person can only be reborn spiritually into Christ's church. This is an "organic" matter.

Hebrews 10:25 is about abandoning the assembly AFTER having been meeting with them. So I don't think it applies to what I am talking about. And I don't quite see what Acts 15:14 has to do with it.

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1Pet 2:17, Heb 13:17, Heb 10:25,25, 1 Cor 14:33, 40, 1 Pet 2:9, 17, 1 Cor 1:10, John 10:16, Matt 24:14 & 28:19, 20 all show it would be an organized group of people that would be doing his will.
================================

That is a lot of verses to check. I don't think I'll check them all now.

However, nothing I said meant do not meet in an assembly per se. I only meant to convey that the spiritual rebirth in the innermost being of a man can take place at any time. The sooner one is born again the better.

Take it that way and not as a teaching to be individualistic and go it alone as an isolated and detached person.

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Not someone thinking they have it in the bag becuase they think all you have to say is "I'm saved and that's all I have to do."
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Seeking first to assure that you have truly recieved Jesus is not saying that you do not need fellowship.

To be regenerated is for the Body. So of course the regenerated believer should seek fellowship. My real purpose was to urge people not to wait but receive Jesus Christ as soon as possible. He is willing to come into people at any time and right where you are.

That is my point.

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Why would one even think that they can do this on their own? Why even have the Bible and all this direction if it didn't mean something? Why did the early congregations have such an organized approach to the ministry?
===============================

Since you misunderstood me. I don't think I need to further reply.
The way I wrote it may have led to the misunderstanding.

[

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
Not quite right. No matter how smart, educated or saved one thinks he is, you cannot do this on your own. Impossible according to Prov 3:5. Heb 10:25. Acts 15:14.
======================================

You have a point. And I do not want to be misunderstood. However a person can only be reborn spirituall d to further reply.
The way I wrote it may have led to the misunderstanding.

[[/b]

Hebrews points out that you should be with others of like faith and not on your own.
Acts brings out that God, Jehovah, would have a people for his name. In other words a group or oganization that he would give his name to because of them submitting to him. Who only uses his name? You would have to be a part of that and be willing to use his name... Rom 10:13 says the only way to be saved is by calling on his name. This is not talking about Jesus.

Originally posted by galveston75
Hebrews points out that you should be with others of like faith and not on your own.
Acts brings out that God, Jehovah, would have a people for his name. In other words a group or oganization that he would give his name to because of them submitting to him. Who only uses his name? You would have to be a part of that and be willing to use his name... R ...[text shortened]... 10:13 says the only way to be saved is by calling on his name. This is not talking about Jesus.

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Hebrews points out that you should be with others of like faith and not on your own.
================================

As per my point, it does not say that you have to wait for that in order to receive Jesus.

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Acts brings out that God, Jehovah, would have a people for his name. In other words a group or oganization that he would give his name to because of them submitting to him.
=================================

When Paul was persecuting the church Jesus said "Why do you persecute Me?" Jesus could have said "My people". He did not. He could have said "Why do you persecute My church". But He did not.

To persecute the church was to persecute Jesus Himself because the believers had been added to Jesus to be the Body of Jesus. This vision Paul must never forgotten because he spoke so much about the Body of Christ. And He even said that the church, the Lord's Body, was "the Christ".

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12)

The total identification of the New Testament church is with Jesus Christ. And suggesting that it is more of Jehovah than of Jesus Christ is not true, if that is what you mean.

=======================
Who only uses his name?
============================

The churches in the Lord's recovery only uplift the name of Jesus. We appreciate various servants of the Lord. But His name is the only name we would exalt.

This is why we stress so much that Christians call on the name of Jesus:

http://www.callingonthelord.org/


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You would have to be a part of that and be willing to use his name... Rom 10:13 says the only way to be saved is by calling on his name. This is not talking about Jesus.
==============

Romans 10:13 - "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The Apostle Paul and his companions preached Jesus Christ as Lord. - "For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)

And Romans 10:13 in context certainly refers back to the name of Jesus in verse 9:

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (v.9)

In that verse LORD obviously refers to Jesus Christ ..."confess Jesus Christ as Lord".

Furthermore the Apostle Paul confirms his intructions by applying a quote from Isaiah 28:16 - "Therefore thus says the Lord Jehovah ... He who believes will not hasten away."

This proves that Jesus the Lord in the New Testament is the incarnation of Jehovah God of Isaiah 28. Of course we should know that because the Word Who was with God and WAS God became flesh.

Calling on the name of Jesus is what Paul is speaking about then in verse 13 - "Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

In the book of Acts Stephen was stoned calling on Jesus:

"And they stoned Stephen as he called upon [the Lord] and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" (Acts 7:59)

And Paul was persecuting all those who called on the name of Jesus. For Ananias told Jesus that Saul of Tarsus was binding all who called on His [Jesus's] name:

"But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man, how many evil things he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Your name." (Acts 9:13,14)

We further read in chapter 22 that Ananias instructed Paul to himself be baptized and to call upon the name of Jesus Who had appeared to Him:

"The God of our fathers has previously appointed you ... to see the righteous One and to hear the voice of His mouth.... And now, why do you delay? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, CALLING ON HIS NAME." (See Acts 22:14-16 my emphasis)

Who was the One who appeared to Saul and whose voice did he hear? It was Jesus "I AM JESUS, whom you persecute" (Acts 9:5)

There is no question that this was the Lord Jesus. For Saul said in exasperation from the ground "Who are you Lord?" And the reply came back "I am Jesus" (Acts 9:5).

So Paul persecuted those who called on JESUS and he was instructed to wash away these sins by himself calling on the name of JESUS. And today we still can have our sins washed away by calling on the name of Jesus. Whoever calls on the name of Jesus shall be saved.

So let us learn to be saved from everything by calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus we love You."

The letter to Corinth was written to that church and all Christians every place "who call upon the name of ... Jesus":

"Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus ... and Sosthenes the brother, To the church of God which is in Corinth ... with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours." (See 1 Cor. 1:1,2)



"Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus". We need to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. For Christians to be one we need to call upon the name of Jesus.

www.callingonthelord.org

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===============================
Hebrews points out that you should be with others of like faith and not on your own.
================================

As per my point, it does not say that you have to wait for that in order to receive Jesus.

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Acts brings out that God, Jehovah, would have a peo ...[text shortened]... on the name of Jesus.

www.callingonthelord.org

So the New Testiment is only about Jesus and nothing about Jehovah?

Originally posted by galveston75
So the New Testiment is only about Jesus and nothing about Jehovah?

No. No. No.

The church is not ANTI Jehovah. The church proclaims that Jehovah is Jesus and Jesus is Jehovah.

Galvaston, Don't you believe that Jesus is Jehovah ?

Why don't you ask Him? Have a good heart to heart talk with God about this matter.