Originally posted by twhiteheadMartin Luther, The Catholic monk (because he originally FAILED to become a priest), was not the first. He was just the only one, at that time that successfully led a splinter faction of the church away from it.
I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but what are you talking about?
I wasn't aware of any editing going on, and if you are referring to different translations, the the Catholics are just as involved in translation as everyone else. And I wasn't aware that Martin Luther was the first to translate the Bible.
As to the editing"
The Missing Parts
of the King James Bible
The Apocrypha
Unknown to almost all of the over two billion people who claim the Bible as their spiritual foundation is that there are several books and two sections missing missing from all but a few versions of that Bible. Perhaps one of the best kept secrets of the modern Protestant church is that the Bible used by that body is not the original King James Bible. That translation, completed in 1611, and the Bibles published for the use of the clergy and the church members until late in the 19th Century, contained 80 books. Although attempts to remove the 14 books known as the Apocrypha from the Bible began immediately after the King James translation was completed they remained in the Bible until the end of the 19th Century. There is no doubt that the 14 books of the Apocrypha were controversial, but it cannot be denied they were included in the original King James Bible.
The concept of the Protestant Church about the Apocrypha is virtually non-existent, with the general understanding that only the Catholic Church uses it. One would be hard-pressed to find any members of the clergy even aware that these books were ever included in the King James Bible. There are 155,683 words and over 5,700 verses contained in 168 chapters now missing from the King James translation of the Bible due to the exclusion of the Apocrypha. Although this only happened just over a hundred years ago, their existence as fully accepted scripture is virtually unknown.
A clear history exists of the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the King James Bible:
· In the year 1615 Archbishop Gorge Abbott, a High Commission Court member and one of the original translators of the 1611 translation, "forbade anyone to issue a Bible without the Apocrypha on pain of one year's imprisonment"
· "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the [Protestant Old Testament] . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called Apocrypha or Deutero-canonical books. The use made of the Apocrypha by Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria is too frequent for detailed references to be necessary" (Early Christian Doctrines, J. Kelly)
· "In 405 Pope Innocent I embodied a list of canonical books in a letter addressed to Exsuperius, bishop of Toulouse; it too included the Apocrypha. The Sixth Council of Carthage (419) Re-enacted the ruling of the Third Council, again with the inclusion of the apocryphal books… "The Sixth Council of Carthage repromulgated in Canon 24 the resolution of the Third Council regarding the canon of scripture, and added a note directing that the resolution be sent to the bishop of Rome (Boniface I) and other bishops: ‘Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon [Canon 47 of the Third Council], because we have received from our fathers that these are the books which are to be read in church.’" (The Canon on Scripture, F. F. Bruce)
· "The holy ecumenical and general Council of Trent . . . following the example of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates all the books of the Old and New Testament . . . and also the traditions pertaining to faith and conduct . . . with an equal sense of devotion and reverence . . . If, however, any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have by custom been read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be accursed." (Decree of the Council of Trent in 1546)
· "In the name of Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church. . . And the other books (as Jerome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine." (Articles of Religion of the Church of England, 1563, Sixth Article)
When the bible was re-written for the uneducated masses that flocked to Martin Luther's coat tails, much was changed to suit his interpretations. Then when
Originally posted by galveston75Context is everything. It helps to know who is talking to whom. Jesus is talking to the disciples, so it doesn't make sense that he would be referring to Jews as a religious category. http://bible.cc/matthew/24-3.htm
Who then?
New International Version (©1984)
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
New Living Translation (©2007)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?"
English Standard Version (©2001)
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
International Standard Version (©2008)
While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will this happen? What will be the sign that you are coming again, and when will the world come to an end?"
King James Bible
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
American King James Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world?
American Standard Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what'shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Bible in Basic English
And while he was seated on the Mountain of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Make clear to us, when will these things be? and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?
Darby Bible Translation
And as he was sitting upon the mount of Olives the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be, and what is the sign of thy coming and the completion of the age?
English Revised Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Webster's Bible Translation
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? and what will be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Weymouth New Testament
Afterwards He was on the Mount of Olives and was seated there when the disciples came to Him, apart from the others, and said, "Tell us when this will be; and what will be the sign of your Coming and of the Close of the Age?"
World English Bible
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Young's Literal Translation
And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
Originally posted by menace71Well to be honest I expect no one here to convert. As a matter of fact we don't convert anyone. God does that if that person is tired of this world with the hate and wickedness that we are all surrounded by and wants something better that the Bible holds out. We show them from scripture ( that we don't make up, it's in every bible printed in the world ) that this system is about to end according to the signs Jesus gave, and then what one needs to do to learn about those facts. Then it's up to them what to do with it.
G-man to be fair you have to admit the fact that your main reason when you post is because you have an agenda. Your agenda is to push forward the JW beliefs and doctrine. At least admit to that. Then when everyone sees through your veneer and attacks you get the persecution complex. I find it funny but you must understand the odds of your converting someone through a chess site forum is fairly slim.
Manny
And I had no agenda as I was simply wanting to know what others thoughts were on this. But as usual we always have the certian few that hate what such scriptures imply as it exposes the truth of what it means or of what they don't understand.................
Originally posted by galveston75I don't totally believe you. I believe you have a sincere love for God and the bible but example: Who are the persecuted mentioned in Matt 24:9 ? Tell us plainly.
Well to be honest I expect no one here to convert. As a matter of fact we don't convert anyone. God does that if that person is tired of this world with the hate and wickedness that we are all surrounded by and wants something better that the Bible holds out. We show them from scripture ( that we don't make up, it's in every bible printed in the world ) ...[text shortened]... as it exposes the truth of what it means or of what they don't understand.................
Manny
Originally posted by Rajk999in that case he fails at that again because in this instance he hasn't attempted to teach.
You are very wrong... to make the assumption that Galveston wants a debate.
He has made his intentions very clear both by word and deed. He has said that he is a teacher of truth and has made no effort to discuss anything. His threads are there to inform the ignorant people (us) of Bible truths. End of story.
Originally posted by galveston75Except you do not 'show them from scripture'. You make up claims about the current state of the world, then claim your made up facts fit the signs in scripture. You probably also do not use signs Jesus gave but rather signs listed in other books.
We show them from scripture ( that we don't make up, it's in every bible printed in the world ) that this system is about to end according to the signs Jesus gave, and then what one needs to do to learn about those facts.
Originally posted by twhiteheadLol...Go back to all my post and see the scriptures I've posted. Does anyone else here use scriptures to disprove the scriptures I use?
Except you do not 'show them from scripture'. You make up claims about the current state of the world, then claim your made up facts fit the signs in scripture. You probably also do not use signs Jesus gave but rather signs listed in other books.
Originally posted by menace71We've been thru this a few times Manny. You know what the answer is... So I ask you, have you been persecuted for being a Christain ever in your life?
I don't totally believe you. I believe you have a sincere love for God and the bible but example: Who are the persecuted mentioned in Matt 24:9 ? Tell us plainly.
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75Have you? If you call posting on an Chess site forum and getting people who disagree with what your posting as persecution then man oh man.
We've been thru this a few times Manny. You know what the answer is... So I ask you, have you been persecuted for being a Christain ever in your life?
Manny
PS: I think your a good guy but I still disagree with JW doctrine.
I try to attack the ideas and concept and not you personally. I make a real effort at least this go around. 🙂
Originally posted by menace71Thanks and I have no problem with ones disagreeing with what we believe. That's expected but when ones do attack me persoanally it's not right and I know I don't always handle it right either. But I'm trying...
Have you? If you call posting on an Chess site forum and getting people who disagree with what your posting as persecution then man oh man.
Manny
PS: I think your a good guy but I still disagree with JW doctrine.
I try to attack the ideas and concept and not you personally. I make a real effort at least this go around. 🙂
And yes I have been put in some really bad positions a few times in my life, mostley in school for not pledging alegence to the flag. One teacher made me stand in front of the class during the pledge so all could stair at me while I didn't do what they were doing. But that was a very common thing for most JW's while in school. It may not happen much now but was very common during and after the various wars and WILL happen again. I thought this country was founded on freedom of religion but I guess not during that time. I had personal friends go to prison for not fighting in the Vietnam war and I missed going myself by 8 months
And I know your feelings on blood and I respect that but my wife almost died many years ago because of not accepting a blood trans ( She still lived anyway ) but the hatred and the constant nasty things that were said to me and my family were beyond belief during that time by the medical staff as well as the resident religious person of that hospital.
And even today it may be more subtle but most JW's have some type of distain shown to them at work when it comes to holidays or blood drives, etc.
It happens to me regularly.
And there is still much imprisonment and injustice done to JW's in many lands today as well as the banning of talking to others about our beliefs. I'd post a few but many here yell at me...
Originally posted by galveston75Mr Galveston, I can bet you any money that the people here on this site will do two things :
Thanks and I have no problem with ones disagreeing with what we believe. That's expected but when ones do attack me persoanally it's not right and I know I don't always handle it right either. But I'm trying...
And yes I have been put in some really bad positions a few times in my life, mostley in school for not pledging alegence to the flag. One teach ...[text shortened]... ning of talking to others about our beliefs. I'd post a few but many here yell at me...
1. They will all (including Me and Fabian) sympathize with the 'persecution' you have endured as long as you have stated the truth. Nobody should be persecuted for their beliefs.
2. They have do not have anything against you stating your doctrine. Our problem is how you state it, ie with an air of arrogance and disregard for our opinions. You do not address reasonable criticism of your beliefs.
In any case what you call persecution is endured by many Christians in other sects.
Originally posted by galveston75Christ was speaking about the future plight of the people of Israel, not Christians living 2000 years later. After Jerusalem's rejection of the messiah, the nation has not seen peace or lasting rest in 2000 years, They (the Jews ) were literally handed over to every ensuing conqueror.
Please explain Matt 24:9 if you can.....
Previous to this statement he gives dire warnings or signs of what will happen and explains in verse 8: All these are the beginning of birth pains. He is talking about the birth of the church in its early days. Christ foresaw great tumult and tribulation for the disciples, and this passage serves as a warning to them...not to believers 2000 years later.
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I have over and over again, as has jawill and others. we tire of your rubber/glue arguments, especially when your position has been proven wrong or untenable time and again.
Lol...Go back to all my post and see the scriptures I've posted. Does anyone else here use scriptures to disprove the scriptures I use?
edit: do you really believe that the JW's are the only followers of Christ who are persecuted? follow this very safe link: http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php